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This really shows that rank means nothing in this game. Players with good game sense and aim can be held back because of how bad the experience is for lower ranked players. Platinum and below you are basically asking to get giga smurfed on if you decide to queue up with friends. The amount of boosted kids in gold/platinum and other factors like throwers makes the ranked experience horrible. There is zero punishment for throwing games, getting boosted or for boosting. Why should players have to play through smurf/thrower lobbies and be told to just get better and carry. The ranked system needs real changes to improve the experience for the majority of the player base who actually gets effected by these issues.

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https://preview.redd.it/3g89gybyhth61.jpg?width=1413&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a8b58c1bee814d3a65058b675fe55c68aa38abfe

Game Played on their Main Before the Diamond/Immortal Lobby

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about 3 years ago - /u/EvrMoar - Direct link

Originally posted by BefondofjohnYT

Because over half the damn player base is in iron - silver. The skill disparity in those elos is all over the place. With this last change riot has gone from a pretty decent bell curve elo distribution to a terrible linear one.

Also, it seems mmr is weighted heavily this season. I was plat 2, 2 seasons ago and took a break. Came back, did placements with my friends and got silver 3. When I solo q I'm still being put into platinum and gold 3 lobbies.

I don't have a ton of time to talk about this, but I did want to correct this statement.

When I started our distribution was more linear. In December we made changes to push us towards a bell curve, which we are now at. So now it's a bell curve, it was linear, you got it backwards.

While we adjusted the rank distribution, we haven't touched match making. So even tho we did change rank distribution, that doesn't change the quality/match making of your games compared to last episode. So trying to blame ranked distribution on your match making isn't necessarily correct. All ranked distribution does is move the cut-offs on where ranking up/down occurs.

Sorry if you're frustrated, but your match making is the exact same this Act as last.

about 3 years ago - /u/EvrMoar - Direct link

I'm not going to downplay your buddies accomplishment, it's awesome he had a good game in immortal MMR. I play against Immortal/Radiant players in our playtests everyday, but I'm only Plat. There are times I go 25+ kills, and games where I get 10. So I wouldn't write him off as an immortal god yet :)

That being said, I see a lot of talk circulating about being "Hard Stuck". I understand that lots of people want, or expect, their rank to be X. It gets frustrating if you aren't getting the rank you think you deserve, or you feel like you can blame the game for why you aren't ranking up. Unfortunately, without us investigating every upset player, there is some "Faith" we ask for in the system. Realistically we don't have the time or resources to analyze every account and break this down. I understand that in the game industry trusting the man behind the curtain has burned a ton of us in the past. But I try to be completely open about what the system is doing, and talk about as much as I can, you can always check my post history to see in depth breakdowns of the system. I promise, at the end of the day, if you are skilled enough to be a higher rank you will get there. You are in a fishbowl, with all the other Valorant players, and over time you will average out to whatever rank you belong in. This is true of any Elo system given enough games.

The only assurance I can give you that you aren't hardstuck, or your friend isn't, is that we've investigated ALOT of accounts. We have yet to find an account that is actually hard stuck, or that their RR gains or losses seem wrong. We've even gone as far as copying accounts and simulating a higher ranked player using that account, showing that if a more skilled player played on that account they could climb out of that rank - every time we did this they would have.

Ranked is about finding your true skill, you will peak somewhere. That being said, we are human and don't always get it right. Maybe there are issues, and because of that we are always investigating and trying to improve the system. While I think we have a good system, I think we could do a better job with AFK/Toxicity concerns. We have the first, of many, things rolling out tomorrow in the new patch. AFK Penalties will just be the start of us cleaning up match making, and our Social and Player Dynamics team has some awesome things planned. It's been awesome to work with their team and give feedback I've heard from the community about the struggles you have in Ranked. Hopefully we can solve some of the issues you have with Ranked. Good luck out there!

about 3 years ago - /u/EvrMoar - Direct link

Originally posted by PankoKing

Hey evr, can you try this again? Our pin system is conflicting the our video trail autopin.

ty :)

about 3 years ago - /u/EvrMoar - Direct link

Originally posted by EvrMoar

I'm not going to downplay your buddies accomplishment, it's awesome he had a good game in immortal MMR. I play against Immortal/Radiant players in our playtests everyday, but I'm only Plat. There are times I go 25+ kills, and games where I get 10. So I wouldn't write him off as an immortal god yet :)

That being said, I see a lot of talk circulating about being "Hard Stuck". I understand that lots of people want, or expect, their rank to be X. It gets frustrating if you aren't getting the rank you think you deserve, or you feel like you can blame the game for why you aren't ranking up. Unfortunately, without us investigating every upset player, there is some "Faith" we ask for in the system. Realistically we don't have the time or resources to analyze every account and break this down. I understand that in the game industry trusting the man behind the curtain has burned a ton of us in the past. But I try to be completely open about what the system is doing, and talk about as much as I can, you can always check my post history to see in depth breakdowns of the system. I promise, at the end of the day, if you are skilled enough to be a higher rank you will get there. You are in a fishbowl, with all the other Valorant players, and over time you will average out to whatever rank you belong in. This is true of any Elo system given enough games.

The only assurance I can give you that you aren't hardstuck, or your friend isn't, is that we've investigated ALOT of accounts. We have yet to find an account that is actually hard stuck, or that their RR gains or losses seem wrong. We've even gone as far as copying accounts and simulating a higher ranked player using that account, showing that if a more skilled player played on that account they could climb out of that rank - every time we did this they would have.

Ranked is about finding your true skill, you will peak somewhere. That being said, we are human and don't always get it right. Maybe there are issues, and because of that we are always investigating and trying to improve the system. While I think we have a good system, I think we could do a better job with AFK/Toxicity concerns. We have the first, of many, things rolling out tomorrow in the new patch. AFK Penalties will just be the start of us cleaning up match making, and our Social and Player Dynamics team has some awesome things planned. It's been awesome to work with their team and give feedback I've heard from the community about the struggles you have in Ranked. Hopefully we can solve some of the issues you have with Ranked. Good luck out there!

!pin

about 3 years ago - /u/EvrMoar - Direct link

Originally posted by iiteBud

Imagine your MMR and RR are connected via a spring. When you go on a nice run and your RR goes up, does it pull MMR up with it? Or does MMR stay relatively the same and just pull your RR down even harder when you finally lose?

It most definitely feels like the latter - like the MMR weighs so massive that it matters not how you play, that your RR will be brought down by goliath when you inevitably lose. You've improved skill in order to get rewarded with absolutely nothing.

Your MMR and RR are definitely connected, and maybe a spring is a good way to think about it.

That being said, your MMR is your actual skill and performance at your rank. Due to the math, and the max cut-offs we have, there is actually a maximum amount your MMR can push your ranked rating gains. Technically you could out win your RR push downwards and climb. So technically if you were really hard stuck you could win enough to climb even if your MMR never changed. Realistically that's something like a 75% winrate and at that winrate you would be drastically increasing your MMR, because you would be winning so much.

The feeling of being hardstuck, I believe, is because players hit the rank they belong in. It's going to feel like your hardstuck because you can't consistently carry games. If you could you would be higher rank. Your MMR is purely based on your performance and win/loss; You aren't trying to perform to trick the system, your performance is being weighed against other players. If you do better then your opponents you climb the ladder, that's how Elo/MMR systems work. You kill/win over an enemy, you push them down and you go up.

MMR definitely will try to push you downards, if you above the rank you belong. That's the point of competitive queue, to find your true rank. It's not about artificial grinds, or trying to keep you playing. Competitive's goal is to create a healthy and competitive queue for you to find your true skill.

We haven't changed the MMR system, for reference TenZ got an account to Radiant MMR in about 20 games. It's possible if you are good to climb fast, and your MMR will shift accordingly.

about 3 years ago - /u/EvrMoar - Direct link

Originally posted by Le_Vagabond

and all that doesn't change the fact that since

  • rank is completely decorrelated from MMR. I've had to explain several times why I'm getting matched with plat players as a gold 1, since most people don't understand that visible rank has no link with your actual skill. always a fun moment, especially when you carry the match after this or when someone dodges based on that.
  • rank is entirely artificial to force a grind treadmill
  • your MMR actually gets very stuck the longer you play (you call that "system confidence in your skill estimate", I think. it's not the positive thing you think it is.)
  • matchmaking is trying to give you a 50% winrate regardless of your skill
  • matchmaking ignores your client language and willingness to communicate entirely to match you AS FAST AS POSSIBLE with who's available even if they don't speak any language you know of or just hate your guts.
  • matchmaking ignores character preferences entirely. always fun playing with 3 instalock duelists.
  • smurfs and/or cheaters (same difference in the end) are a morale killer

ranked just feels bad for solo queuers like me.

one thing I'd love an answer to: why are people under diamond 3 not considered the same as those higher rated? why can't I get a solo/duo queue like them? why do I have to suffer 4men premades on my side (no coms outside of their discord) and 5men premades on the other?

You are making a lot of assumptions on how the system is working, when it's kind of working different. You have a lot of the right ideas, but I definitely want to talk about some of the things you are pointing out. This isn't meant to slam your thoughts, or to say "you're wrong" - I really want to explain how the system works. Your frustrated, the least I can do is explain why. I won't be able to solve your frustrations immediately, or maybe we won't be able to, but I think you deserve an explination.

rank is completely decorrelated from MMR. I've had to explain several times why I'm getting matched with plat players as a gold 1, since most people don't understand that visible rank has no link with your actual skill. always a fun moment, especially when you carry the match after this or when someone dodges based on that.

This is true, and not true. Mostly not true. After you play placements, we know the range where you might belong. If after your 5 placements, we think you belong somewhere between silver 1-Gold 3, we will place you on the lower end. That means your rank is technically still on the curve of where your MMR could fall. Your placements, and skill, determined your initial rank placement. So while you may be testing higher, technically you are still within the range of your MMR.

There are a few reasons for this. We may have overestimated your skill, so it's better to place you slightly lower. We would rather place you slightly lower, and give you increased RR gains, then place you above where you belong and just have you chain lose with increase RR losses. It's much healthier to let you test up, then to make you test down. A great way to think about this is learning/school in general. You never take tests on what you don't know, and fail them, you are tested on what you do know and prove it.

This leads into how Elo systems work. You need lots of games to find your true skill. Technically you need over 1000+ to find your true Elo in chess. That's a game that does not change, doesn't have new agents, or maps, or rule changes, etc. Because we won't ever have a static, non-changing game, we actually have to speed up and get more accurate in how to rate your skill. You may think, in a system that is "Just pure MMR" that it's more accurate but that isn't true. During your first few games, in any MMR system, you will have wildly crazy gains/losses. That's because the system needs you to play some games, in order to see where you stack against other players, and you will fall wherever you belong.

That's exactly what our system is doing. Instead of making you climb from 0, we are just setting your starting point on the low end of where we think you belong. Then in about 30 games you will, by force, converge with your MMR. You can't stop your rank matching your MMR. If you win, the boosted RR gains will push you to your MMR. If you lose, your MMR will drop and it will converge with your current rank. So while you are being tested early on, yes your Rank may not be where you are currently being tested. But it is still a reflection of your placements, you skill, and your initial seeding into a ranked system. Every ranked system is like this. No ranked system will tell you your rank in 5 matches. There just isn't a realistic algorithm to do so and we don't have enough matches to have a big enough sample size.

rank is entirely artificial to force a grind treadmill

This isn't true at all. Making an artificial grind isn't the goal, the goal of competitive queue is "To create a healthy and competitive space, where players can play against each other to find their true rank."

This is also counter to making a good game. If you make a fun, enjoyable game, people will play it. We don't need to create a fake grind, because we are trying to make a fun game. If we don't make a fun game people wouldn't want to grind it in the first place.

your MMR actually gets very stuck the longer you play (you call that "system confidence in your skill estimate", I think. it's not the positive thing you think it is.)

The confidence system isn't exactly what you think it is. There are two things that are technically "confidence". One is going to be your match sample size. The more matches you play, the more matches we have to know what your skill is. Technically that can be viewed as confidence, this is how Elo systems get a good idea of where you belong.

That being said, we have a different confidence system. Like I said above, there is a band we are "confident" you belong in after placements. Lets use that same example as above, you belong somewhere in Silver 1 - Gold 3. If you have a bad game, or a map you aren't confident on, we know you perform at about Silver 1. Alternatively, if you are having a really good game we think you could perform around Gold 3. This is the range at which we are confident in placing you in a match. As you play matches, that confidence changes, because we get more data and understand you better. So that band might shift, or shrink, and we will know what a "good match" and a "bad match" looks like from you.

So while it may seem like we are trying to make you "hard stuck" if you were to start performing out side of that confidence band, the system would flex and readjust. It would loosen its confidence and it would become much easier to climb and change your MMR, the systems confidence in you. You aren't hardstuck, we just get better at predicting your skill and you aren't performing above where we expect you to belong.

matchmaking is trying to give you a 50% winrate regardless of your skill

Match making isn't trying to give you a 50% winrate. Match making is trying to give you fair matches. There is no point in giving you an unfair match, it doesn't prove anything and is not beneficial to our goal "finding your true rank". If we put you in a match against silver, but you were gold, that would only prove you can stomp and beat silvers. It would not prove that you go can toe to toe with people actually in gold. This is the age old argument that "Skill based match making is sweaty" - which is true. You are playing competitive to have the most fair, competitive match making, we can offer. We are going to try and put you in matches that give you a 50% chance to win, which in turn will most likely result in you having a 50% win rate. We aren't trying to give you a 50% win rate, again our goal is finding your true rank and creating fair match making.

matchmaking ignores your client language and willingness to communicate entirely to match you AS FAST AS POSSIBLE with who's available even if they don't speak any language you know of or just hate your guts.

This is definitely a regional issue. This is a very hard thing we are going to constantly be learning how to deal with. It's unfair to try and dictate what languages are "allowed" in what regions. We have solutions and plans in the work for these issues. While we agree voice chat is important, we also understand there will always be barriers to voice chat - things like language, anxiety, toxicity, disabilities, etc. There are plenty of players that don't communicate that are immortal+, just like there are players that do that are immortal+. This will be something that will not be an easy solve, for anyone, and is going to take time and effort to combat.(this is also the Social and Player Dynamics team space, not mine, they know this space way better then me!)

matchmaking ignores character preferences entirely. always fun playing with 3 instalock duelists.

This is part of playing an ability based shooter where you can have different playstyles. At the end of the day, you are the constant factor in your games. We are continuously releasing more characters. There will be a time where you can have 5 sentinels, 5 initiators, etc. While it can be frustrating that you may not enjoy your team comp, or the agents your teammates are choosing, you can only effect on you perform and what you do. Remember you are the only constant factor in your matches(unless you exclusively group with the same people). I don't plan on push for enforcing a meta, or enforcing teams to be "2 Dualist, 2 Sentinel, etc." - I think that's part of the enjoyment of Valorant. Finding unique strategies and skill combos.

smurfs and/or cheaters (same difference in the end) are a morale killer

I've seen smurfs, or cheaters, thrown as a reason an individual is losing games. While we have an idea of how many smurfs there are, as well as know how many cheaters we catch, it's not going to 100% accurate(but probably pretty close). Honestly smurfs and cheaters are a very, tiny, small % of the player base and it's pretty rare to run into them. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, or that there aren't players that get unlucky and maybe have a few games where they run into them. Realistically you are still the constant factor in your matches, and those matches will be few and far between in your ranked journey. Obviously we are always combating cheaters, and we are always thinking of ways to handle smurfs better or try to reduce the reasons players feel they need to smurf.

about 3 years ago - /u/EvrMoar - Direct link

Originally posted by EvrMoar

You are making a lot of assumptions on how the system is working, when it's kind of working different. You have a lot of the right ideas, but I definitely want to talk about some of the things you are pointing out. This isn't meant to slam your thoughts, or to say "you're wrong" - I really want to explain how the system works. Your frustrated, the least I can do is explain why. I won't be able to solve your frustrations immediately, or maybe we won't be able to, but I think you deserve an explination.

rank is completely decorrelated from MMR. I've had to explain several times why I'm getting matched with plat players as a gold 1, since most people don't understand that visible rank has no link with your actual skill. always a fun moment, especially when you carry the match after this or when someone dodges based on that.

This is true, and not true. Mostly not true. After you play placements, we know the range where you might belong. If after your 5 placements, we think you belong somewhere between silver 1-Gold 3, we will place you on the lower end. That means your rank is technically still on the curve of where your MMR could fall. Your placements, and skill, determined your initial rank placement. So while you may be testing higher, technically you are still within the range of your MMR.

There are a few reasons for this. We may have overestimated your skill, so it's better to place you slightly lower. We would rather place you slightly lower, and give you increased RR gains, then place you above where you belong and just have you chain lose with increase RR losses. It's much healthier to let you test up, then to make you test down. A great way to think about this is learning/school in general. You never take tests on what you don't know, and fail them, you are tested on what you do know and prove it.

This leads into how Elo systems work. You need lots of games to find your true skill. Technically you need over 1000+ to find your true Elo in chess. That's a game that does not change, doesn't have new agents, or maps, or rule changes, etc. Because we won't ever have a static, non-changing game, we actually have to speed up and get more accurate in how to rate your skill. You may think, in a system that is "Just pure MMR" that it's more accurate but that isn't true. During your first few games, in any MMR system, you will have wildly crazy gains/losses. That's because the system needs you to play some games, in order to see where you stack against other players, and you will fall wherever you belong.

That's exactly what our system is doing. Instead of making you climb from 0, we are just setting your starting point on the low end of where we think you belong. Then in about 30 games you will, by force, converge with your MMR. You can't stop your rank matching your MMR. If you win, the boosted RR gains will push you to your MMR. If you lose, your MMR will drop and it will converge with your current rank. So while you are being tested early on, yes your Rank may not be where you are currently being tested. But it is still a reflection of your placements, you skill, and your initial seeding into a ranked system. Every ranked system is like this. No ranked system will tell you your rank in 5 matches. There just isn't a realistic algorithm to do so and we don't have enough matches to have a big enough sample size.

rank is entirely artificial to force a grind treadmill

This isn't true at all. Making an artificial grind isn't the goal, the goal of competitive queue is "To create a healthy and competitive space, where players can play against each other to find their true rank."

This is also counter to making a good game. If you make a fun, enjoyable game, people will play it. We don't need to create a fake grind, because we are trying to make a fun game. If we don't make a fun game people wouldn't want to grind it in the first place.

your MMR actually gets very stuck the longer you play (you call that "system confidence in your skill estimate", I think. it's not the positive thing you think it is.)

The confidence system isn't exactly what you think it is. There are two things that are technically "confidence". One is going to be your match sample size. The more matches you play, the more matches we have to know what your skill is. Technically that can be viewed as confidence, this is how Elo systems get a good idea of where you belong.

That being said, we have a different confidence system. Like I said above, there is a band we are "confident" you belong in after placements. Lets use that same example as above, you belong somewhere in Silver 1 - Gold 3. If you have a bad game, or a map you aren't confident on, we know you perform at about Silver 1. Alternatively, if you are having a really good game we think you could perform around Gold 3. This is the range at which we are confident in placing you in a match. As you play matches, that confidence changes, because we get more data and understand you better. So that band might shift, or shrink, and we will know what a "good match" and a "bad match" looks like from you.

So while it may seem like we are trying to make you "hard stuck" if you were to start performing out side of that confidence band, the system would flex and readjust. It would loosen its confidence and it would become much easier to climb and change your MMR, the systems confidence in you. You aren't hardstuck, we just get better at predicting your skill and you aren't performing above where we expect you to belong.

matchmaking is trying to give you a 50% winrate regardless of your skill

Match making isn't trying to give you a 50% winrate. Match making is trying to give you fair matches. There is no point in giving you an unfair match, it doesn't prove anything and is not beneficial to our goal "finding your true rank". If we put you in a match against silver, but you were gold, that would only prove you can stomp and beat silvers. It would not prove that you go can toe to toe with people actually in gold. This is the age old argument that "Skill based match making is sweaty" - which is true. You are playing competitive to have the most fair, competitive match making, we can offer. We are going to try and put you in matches that give you a 50% chance to win, which in turn will most likely result in you having a 50% win rate. We aren't trying to give you a 50% win rate, again our goal is finding your true rank and creating fair match making.

matchmaking ignores your client language and willingness to communicate entirely to match you AS FAST AS POSSIBLE with who's available even if they don't speak any language you know of or just hate your guts.

This is definitely a regional issue. This is a very hard thing we are going to constantly be learning how to deal with. It's unfair to try and dictate what languages are "allowed" in what regions. We have solutions and plans in the work for these issues. While we agree voice chat is important, we also understand there will always be barriers to voice chat - things like language, anxiety, toxicity, disabilities, etc. There are plenty of players that don't communicate that are immortal+, just like there are players that do that are immortal+. This will be something that will not be an easy solve, for anyone, and is going to take time and effort to combat.(this is also the Social and Player Dynamics team space, not mine, they know this space way better then me!)

matchmaking ignores character preferences entirely. always fun playing with 3 instalock duelists.

This is part of playing an ability based shooter where you can have different playstyles. At the end of the day, you are the constant factor in your games. We are continuously releasing more characters. There will be a time where you can have 5 sentinels, 5 initiators, etc. While it can be frustrating that you may not enjoy your team comp, or the agents your teammates are choosing, you can only effect on you perform and what you do. Remember you are the only constant factor in your matches(unless you exclusively group with the same people). I don't plan on push for enforcing a meta, or enforcing teams to be "2 Dualist, 2 Sentinel, etc." - I think that's part of the enjoyment of Valorant. Finding unique strategies and skill combos.

smurfs and/or cheaters (same difference in the end) are a morale killer

I've seen smurfs, or cheaters, thrown as a reason an individual is losing games. While we have an idea of how many smurfs there are, as well as know how many cheaters we catch, it's not going to 100% accurate(but probably pretty close). Honestly smurfs and cheaters are a very, tiny, small % of the player base and it's pretty rare to run into them. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, or that there aren't players that get unlucky and maybe have a few games where they run into them. Realistically you are still the constant factor in your matches, and those matches will be few and far between in your ranked journey. Obviously we are always combating cheaters, and we are always thinking of ways to handle smurfs better or try to reduce the reasons players feel they need to smurf.

why are people under diamond 3 not considered the same as those higher rated? why can't I get a solo/duo queue like them?

This is because grouping up in Valorant is EXTREMELY popular. Competitive in Valorant is a very popular queue, and so is grouping up. We are investigating other ways to create competitive experiences for players who like to team up, but that's going to be a ways off. We feel like splitting the queue would really hurt our ability to make fair matches, and reduce the enjoyment/engagement with ranked if we made it solo/duo only.

We put solo/duo on high ranks because of having a leaderboard and match queue time. At the highest level 5 stacks can be a huge problem, because they could manipulate the leaderboard and it's very hard to find a 5 stack that could play against Cloud9 or G2 for example. There just aren't enough players at that skill level queuing up.

Also, because we have more players at lower ranks, we can match them against each other and make fair matches easier. Our system is actually very good at matching 5stacks against 5stacks, 4 on 4, 3 on 3, etc. It gets easier the more players we have, which of course we have more players at lower ranks. It's very rare to not have a 5 stack play another 5 stack.

WHEW, that was so long. I just kept typing. If you got this far, good on you, that was a ton to type and I'm assuming a ton to read. Probably a few mistakes here or there, I type fast and don't have time to edit my stuff a ton. I hope this help explain the system better. I don't think it will end your frustrations, but hopefully we can keep improving ranked and roll out changes to help alleviate some of the issues you are facing. Good luck, and I'll see you in ranked :P

about 3 years ago - /u/EvrMoar - Direct link

Originally posted by replace_

i was plat last act and now gold for some reason idk probably because i dont devote alot of time to the game, and i get 28-35 rr on a win and lose 19ish on a loss so does that mean the game thinks i deserve a higher rank so it is trying to push me up to my real rank?

Yes! Right now you are being tested at a higher rank. So when you win a game at that rank you earn more, and if you lose you will lose less.

If you keep winning, you'll climb to that rank. If you were to lose more then you win, the system will start to test you lower and you will climb to a rank slightly below the one you are currently being tested at.

After placements your first 20-30 games will be testing you to find your true rank, after that you have to keep improving and climbing the old fashioned way :)

about 3 years ago - /u/EvrMoar - Direct link

Originally posted by replace_

i mean i keep losing most my games but still get more rank ratings than losses is that because i mainly get match mvp with a lot of first bloods or because of my last act rank?

You can say your last act rank, but really it's just your MMR. Your MMR is how the game finds your matches, and what it uses to weigh you against other players. The game will push you to your MMR, so the better you do the more you raise your MMR and the more RR you will gain per win.

You will start to catch up with your MMR, and then your win/loss amounts will even out.

about 3 years ago - /u/EvrMoar - Direct link

Originally posted by AsianNudleSoop

Not OP, but I really really appreciate you taking the time to type all this out, and explaining it so well. Coming from other games, this kind of frequent quality communication is mind-blowing. Lots of people are frustrated with ranked rn, so thanks for explaining it so well.

Thanks for reading! I don't expect a ton of people to really want, or need, to know the inner workings of ranked. But I think it's important to have discussions, because it helps find the real problems. If you are frustrated, on top of not knowing why, it creates a huge barrier between you and the dev team in finding a solution.

Thanks for the kind words!

about 3 years ago - /u/EvrMoar - Direct link

Originally posted by Le_Vagabond

If you got this far, good on you, that was a ton to type and I'm assuming a ton to read.

the least I could do was read it. thanks for taking the time.

I'd like to know what you and the matchmaking system consider a fair match though, because I feel that's where our disagreement comes from. this is one of my recent matches, highlighting how unfair they can get - in my favour for once, but I've been on the receiving end of that pretty often too and usually at the hand of one single very obvious smurf whereas the match in that screenshot is 100% the matchmaking system's responsibility. note that I didn't do anything exceptionally well in that one match, the entire opposing team just had incredibly bad aim for their rank. the next two matches were 8-13 defeats at the hands of people whose aim was very obviously much much better than my entire team, who ended up with a 2+ kda. you have my riot name here, I'm sure you can check my history and see what I'm talking about. even though the score is pretty close, nothing felt "fair" since those players were very obviously much better than us in every way. several even bragged about being "immortal on their main", though of course I can't verify this.

on top of that, I'd love to think that one of the criterions your system takes into account is voice communication usage, but experience leads me to believe it doesn't. imagine a world where you match people willing to talk with people willing to talk.

I think you're also massively underestimating how bad matches can get in Europe when the system throws Russians without voice, racist Turkish players and so many other people unwilling or unable to play together in any way, shape or form in the same teams, and how sour the whole ranked experience can feel from that. "massively" is probably not strong enough a word here. I've resorted to selecting London as my only server, where at least I'm somewhat assured to play with English speaking people, but I still have to dodge around one in four times and you're going to punish me for that starting next patch. fun fact: I've ended up in teams with 3+ French people who try to play exclusively on the London server for the same reasons.

I'm in love with the idea of counter-strike and valorant, which is what high ranked high skill players usually have in their matches. their victories and defeats come from performing better or worse as a team in a given match, but at the very least their teammates and opponents are somewhat on par with them and are there to try their best, with communication being a basic requirement and not something nice to have if you're lucky.

it just makes me sad that 3 out of 5 of my matches are decided by my teammates willingness to play that game, and the presence or absence of a much better player in the other team. my performance also varies a lot depending on how much communication there is, since I'm not Asuna and therefore not able to just W into the opposing team killing everyone.

so when you say "reduce the enjoyment" I have to answer that I'm not enjoying matches very often in ranked queue, unfortunately. once in a while I get lucky on the draw and even if we lose it feels like a real match, but it's not that often. especially when you take into account the fact that "20-30 matches" might be the entire season for me, working full time.

Our match maker is actually pretty good in match making, of course that's just data. I think part of the problem is FPS games can be very unpredictable. Having a bad match, where you are just not landing shots, can really throw the fairness of a match. So while we expect you to perform at a certain level, sometimes people have bad days. The same can be said about people having good days.

I've seen the feedback on Russian comm's, just so you know the team is aware of it. It will take time but I think we are on a good place and only will get better. Thanks again for reading and you have definitely been heard.

about 3 years ago - /u/EvrMoar - Direct link

Originally posted by BefondofjohnYT

First off thanks for the reply!

But is it really? Because it honestly feels a lot like beta again which was very clearly a linear distribution as you said. Bell curve was very noticeable and felt really good. If I had to compare how they feel, by my games and watching others, it feels a lot closer to beta.

So you're saying the rank distribution was changed more in favor of a bell curve this act? I thought the previous act was pretty good distribution wise, I never felt I was in an unfair game once I hit plat 2 imo.

And I'm not frustrated at all. But the skill disparity is there. With my placement being a red flag to me, and looking at 3rd party tools indicating a linear trend, since it's all I have to go off of, I don't think you guys have released any stats. Allowing me to place silver 3 yet I'm able to keep up with gold+, I see the effort when I'm being matched with higher ranks and gaining 45+ rr. But I can still play with down to bronze 3 and potentially stomp.

If the distribution of elo isn't the issue and the highest concentration of players are not in the lowest elos, where are they? Is it still silver/gold? And what is the issue then? Are smurfs to blame because some of these bronze players feel exactly like a lot of these high golds. Also I have been matched with multiple ex-diamonds in silver and bronze from last act when playing with my bronze friends.

It's hard for me to take your word that the distribution isn't falling back into a linear trend when I see these ex-high ranking previous players in low elo matches, so to me, it's either that or something needs to be adjusted.

Or is it still that "inconsistency" that no one can seem to quite pinpoint?

EDIT: I just wanted to add that I am very much enjoying the game and I voice this out of criticism not hate. I understand the effort that goes into getting this stuff right, I'm a programmer myself but no where near to the scale you have to satisfy people on. So seriously thanks for reaching out that's very cool of you and best of luck!

Here is a great example of what the curve was like before Episode 2/December:

https://www.esportstales.com/valorant/rank-distribution-and-percentage-of-players-by-tier

I can't confirm if that's the exact, correct, data from december/early Jan but it looks close. Maybe at some point I can get the okay to release what it is now vs what it was, but we are going to be making adjustments each act so I don't want people to focus on it too much.

My goal for distribution was to have the center point for the average user be mid/high silver. So if you were to drive a stake in the ground, that would be the center of the player base. I think we are doing pretty well this act.

A lot of the high ranking players you may be seeing, if you are looking at Act Rank, has a high chance of being players that haven't played in a while. Remember the game has only been out for 8ish months? A player could have earned their act rank over 3 months ago. That's almost 40% of the entire time the game has been out currently. So if that player earned their act rank, and hasn't played in 3 months, that means the community has had 40%(potentially) more time to get better, learn the game, and progress past that player. An Immortal in Beta is infinitely worse then a current ranked immortal.

What we are experiencing is lots of new players coming to the game, lots coming back because of the big update, as well as skill explosion/banding due to the short time the game has been out. So Act Ranks are probably going to be a little off, on top of our distribution changes, just because the game is young and the player base is evolving so quickly.

about 3 years ago - /u/EvrMoar - Direct link

Originally posted by BefondofjohnYT

I appreciate the response, but that curve, while technically no it's not a linear curve and is a bell curve, that is still a significant amount of players in the lower tiers wouldn't you think? There's almost as many iron players as bronze, almost as many bronze as silver, around 60% of the player base are in the bottom 3 ranks out of 8.

Driving a stake in it as you say, kinda looks closer to high bronze low silver as "average" here. Wouldn't it be healthier for the game, and community for progressing purposes, be to shift that curve more to the right? That's a staggering amount of people considered the "worst rank". This to me really does look like an invitation for highly varying match integerity, and since mmr plays a pretty significant role, wouldn't this feel even worse as your mmr increases, due to the high skill disparity, it doesn't matter, you're still in the lowest ranks?

Why not drive that stake high silver/gold, right in the middle of the 8 ranks? Wouldn't that disperse those players in a smooth climb up the bell, then a smooth steeper drop down to the highest rank, helping for less of a skill disparity per rank by making a more normalized skill level per rank/tier?

That curve is before I changed distribution. I don't have an image of after unfortunately. Now the highest points are in silver, and curved down both ways from there. Instead of having an insane amount of players in iron.