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To me, the appeal of Valorant is tactical gunplay with Agent utility layered on top. You deal damage by shooting heads better than your opponents, not by Agent abilities.

Raze’s ENTIRE kit deals big damage. Which goes against the core principle of Valorant. She feels straight out of Overwatch.

FRAG GRENADES ARE CORE TO CS. That is undeniable. And it makes sense that we should have a Frag Grenade themed Agent. You can’t have CS without Frag Grenades. I think her kit would be acceptable and balanced if her damaged was toned down considerably though.

If I were Riot, I would tone down the damage of her grenades. I don’t think her Rocket Launcher has to deal so much damage. It could deal only 100 damage in the AoE and it would still be strong.

That is all, thank you for reading.

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about 4 years ago - /u/MorelloRiot - Direct link

Hey y'all!

Lemme talk a bit of what we think Raze is for, in a game like VALORANT.

Raze is spicy. Weirdly, she's also the very first agent (tied with Sage, I believe) for how long she's been in the game with this gameplay. Her abilities all do very high damage in a small-to-moderate area.

Initially, while everyone is getting used to the game, these will score quite a few kills. But the goal (and what we've seen in other testing, so far) is that this turns into rarely getting kills with the abilities, as players respond to the tools and into flushing players out of areas and gunning them down in disadvantageous gunfights. As the skill curve goes up, people shoot Gary more, they dodge clusters most of the time, and rush her when she throws a close range satchel pack with her weapon down - and the real impact becomes space control.

The high damage is meant to *threaten* you more than kill you, forcing you ro move positions into a disadvantaged engagement. For the small space it controls compared to something like Sova's dart, Breach's Flashpoint or Phoenix's curveball, we had to make it impossible to ignore so she could flush out predictable positions.

These abilities should still be used before or after engagements to control space, not used instead of guns in direct fights (my expectation is a player throwing a Cluster or rolling Gary directly *at* someone would get mowed down). This is part of the critical tactical loop we think is really sacred.

That all being said, I think there's some tuning we wanna watch. Back-to-back clusters might be a bit much, and things like aimpunch on the baby-nades, Ult cost of the Rocket and other numerics are totally on the table. Just wanted to clarify what Raze (and really damaging skills) are for in VALORANT.

about 4 years ago - /u/MorelloRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by Blastuch_v2

Do you think that that the best way to take on her balance wise would be speeding up or slowing down her cast times?

Edit: changed to cast times cause it has the meaning I was going for

I think equip time and re-equip times are a good balancing lever if she's using them too reactively or in combat, yeah. We do this with Breach to make sure he's really proactive

about 4 years ago - /u/MorelloRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by levelupyourgame

Please don't remove ability to double satchel jump (via longer cooldown/re-equip time), I love random mechanics like this

Satchel I'm not super worried about tbh. And yes, her movement is a good value

about 4 years ago - /u/MorelloRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by Nudl_WCR

It hasn't even been a week and there's already a character with blatant balance issues and toxic mechanics. You have the same problem in LoL where characters are left unchecked for months. I'm losing faith in the game and company. If this is another example of devs who are too afraid to "kill your darlings".

2GD the developer from Diabotical says it the best here:
https://youtu.be/Rlp2SgW_ig4?t=14

That's a bit much, doomsaying this early is pretty far out there, man. We'll do something if it ends up like this, but I'm not going to kneejerk sweeping changes after a 36 hours of public play when there's a lot to learn through heat testing. A lot of tuning levers exist (damage, area, frequency, equip times, costs) we can pull quickly if needed.

I'd rather also let players figure it out than be overly interventionist or whip lash with buffs and nerfs

Summit being frustrated at it ain't the only KPI.

about 4 years ago - /u/MorelloRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by whitesundreams

I disagree with OP and there are people who like the direction of Raze. Valorant should be more Overwatch and less tactical. I feel that the tactical shooter genre already has an audience RS6, CSGO, Tarkov and several Asian counter parts that are insanely popular. For hero shooters you have Overwatch and Paladins. You could also consider Shadowrun in this genre, which I really hope this game becomes. Shadowrun was incredibly fun for its time.

Valorant has an audience that is looking for a team based shooter that isn't ultimate based but also not overly tactical.

That's definitely not the goal. Tactical is core, which is why razes abilities need to be really managed exceptions - not adding new combat models

about 4 years ago - /u/MorelloRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by SteelFlux

How about nerfing her rocket launcher? As mentioned below, probably a flat 50 damage + stun/daze depending on how close you are to the blast? It could give a player who reacted fast enough but still got caught by the blast to fight back.

But since you're saying that she's more of a pub agent than a comp, I'll watch and see what you shall do in the future

I think rocket is where I feel the most like you do, though wanna slow burn it based on some play experience (my other worry is also that it's an ult that trades primarily, which is meh too)

about 4 years ago - /u/MorelloRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by Oothman

Sorry but this is complete bullshit and puts me off investing myself in the game entirely. This and the fly around with knives chick are ridiculously overpowered especially compared to viper who takes a lot of skill to use effectively and her abilities do little damage. Why would you think it’s a good idea for an agent to have a rocket launcher that one hits in a massive blast radius? This is not skilful or tactical and promotes nothing you talked about in this comment, it’s straight out of call of duty and makes me just wanna go back to csgo

We're going to have abilities that provide momentary or limited exceptions to pure tactics (we're tactical, but not purest like a cs 1.6 2). Jetts dash let's you escape combat once a round. Razes clusters must be respected. (Rocket is the spiciest and I think does not match what I said -tru). Ults are even bigger, but way less frequent exceptions.

The game is about gunplay first, but not only. We're gonna test the limits of of those things. We care a lot about the tac cycle, but aren't slavish to how cs or r6 do it.

about 4 years ago - /u/MorelloRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by McLyntree

greetings!

after playing a few games against raze and hearing others opinions, heres what i have to say about raze:

she has a great kit! her robot is effective yet very counterable, while her c4 allows for some awesome plays and opens up a lot of opportunities for taking certain positions.

where i think most of the problems players have with her lie though is with her grenades and her ultimate.

i really like the idea of an agent having grenades, as grenades are the backbones to other tactical shooters like counter strike, but i feel like the grenades also having clusters makes them a bit too effective, especially since shes allowed to carry two of them. i think a few considerable ideas would be to remove the cluster part of the grenades as it heavily punishes anyone who is forced to stay within its radius, or to give it one charge so it becomes less of a spam ability, as a lot of players complain about, and more of a reserved ability for specific situations.

as for her ultimate:

" But the goal... is that this turns into rarely getting kills with the abilities, as players respond to the tools"

i think a lot of players can agree that her ultimate is very hard to properly react to and dodge. i think the reason why most players are fine with something like brimstone's ultimate is because youre given time to see the indicator and move out of the area. with raze, it feels like if dva's explosion was instant. personally i feel like there should be another indicator that shows the explosion radius coupled with an audio cue for when she shoots the rocket launcher. maybe the projectile can be slowed down, or maybe it can even be able to be shot down, similar to the way unreal tournament handles the redeemer.

while i do love the overall kit and gameplay style of raze, i feel like some parts of it should be toned down to fit the style of a tactical game.

Good post. I definitely think these are the issues people are feeling.

Grenades being close together has been the most "just blow me up" situation I've seen so far and is a likely next step. The rocket frustration is something we talk about a lot, and some of the solutions we have have been talked about in this thread.

I do wanna watch more hours and get lore patterns before going hard in on anything, but these are areas were watching. Thanks!

about 4 years ago - /u/MorelloRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by McLyntree

"Grenades being close together has been the most 'just blow me up' situation I've seen so far"

ha i can totally relate to that!

and thank you for taking time to ask for community feedback and consider what they suggest. it may not seem like much but i think that a lot of people appreciate it.

It's a journey - one thing we wanna do is both go "here's where we're at" but sorta work through this together. "Strong views, weakly held" we have a strong opinion but should be able to change our minds quickly on how to best meet the game/audience needs.

about 4 years ago - /u/MorelloRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by Settleforthep0p

If you want her abilities to be a threat rather than a kill, why are her grenades able to one shot people?

Because pushing you out of a safe position in to something like a Vandal trained on you is a deadly threat. It takes threat of death to force repositioning - you can soak a Diva arrow, but Raze is about small area, high threat position clearing

about 4 years ago - /u/MorelloRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by PMF_Glitch

after playing for two days, I can say that if her abilities are meant to flush people out, maybe decrease the range in the baby nades. Right now, there are many areas of maps that can be completely cut off, or deny entire access of the area with one nade. Right now her ability that is meant to flush people out, can be used to get up to 3 kills if a team is going into a site with a chokehold, she can use it to get super early map control, ect, ect. And there is nothing wrong with either of these things. However what’s wrong is that there is nothing the attackers can do about it. They have to either run away, or die. And even if they run, the range is big enough and they explored fast enough you still take like 70 damage.

This is one of our considerations is popping the range in a bit!

about 4 years ago - /u/MorelloRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by thebutinator

Exactly, nades in cs are for killing tagged enemies, molos are for driving enemies out of bad positions, if nades onehit you could just throw them at push points etc which raze does, with extreme success

The difference here is that molotovs also can stall - one of the things we wanted to have is something that flushes, but doesn't have the same stall potential.

almost 4 years ago - /u/MorelloRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by OrdinarySaiyan

f**k you and f**k raze

<3