Riot Dev -
"If you don't respect the ability and you don't respond to it. It's ok for us that you die in that situation. What we want to ode (?) to all of you and make sure is true is that you're getting the proper window of time to move away from it, and you are getting the proper audio and visual queues to move away from it."
Dizzy -
Just saying...
That quote from Trevor is talking specifically about Paint Shells, Raze's grenade. This clip's a bit different because it's Raze's ult, and Dizzy uses two Satchels to close the gap on this player from an unexpected angle.
For what it's worth, this player also knows that Dizzy has his ult when the round starts - when I'm playing offense on Bind against an aggressive Raze, I normally give it a few seconds in the start of the round before pushing into a tight angle like that if she has her ult up to punish plays like this. The ult has a short duration once equipped, so if she plays aggro like this and doesn't see anyone quickly, there's a good chance you can waste her ult for free.
Regardless, we understand the frustration here, and we're definitely looking for ways to message her abilities even more clearly to ensure players have enough information and time to play around her.
Hi thanks for the communication with the community, I think that's so important for a successful ongoing game and something you guys have been rocking. However, going back to Raze my question is this; why give her that ult? I understand the rest of her kit, even if I think her damage is too strong at the moment, but her ult just seems to go against the vision of the game as laid out in the beginning of the video. The dev in the video discusses how to make it easier to play against but that's ignoring the core of the issue imo. Raze should not exist in her current state and I think it's going to hurt the game going forwards if she and other characters after her continue with the same design philosophy.
Just to start off, I'm not a designer so it's important to set that context up front! I'm on Insights, specifically on Gameplay, so I'm responsible for things like data informing game balance, playtesting content in development, gathering feedback from players via surveys and labs, etc. I work closely with designers and the balance team, but I don't design anything - I gather data and sentiment on the stuff they make and work with them to help inform our decisions going forward.
So, I'd default to one of our designers around why Raze has this specific ult, but I can speak to it philosophically. Raze's ult is 6 points. It is very lethal, requires near-line of sight (has a small aoe, so you can hit people in corners, but you can't hit them through walls), and is on a tight time window after being equipped to be used. It's definitely sharp ability, but I personally don't feel it's fundamentally broken and can be used as a tactical tool to play around. Compared to other 6 point ults, like Brimstone who can ult across portions of the map safely to block vision, deny defuses/plants, and threaten lethal damage on an area, or Jett who can spend 6 point to get a premium-powered weapon that's usable all round and accurate while moving and shooting, Raze's ult doesn't feel super outsized in terms of power - it's gated in a lot more ways than other ults (line of sight, time limited), but makes up for it in potency (lethal damage!).
To your point on the vision of the game, in my mind it's a matter of perspective. When I look at Raze ult, I do think of it as a tactical tool. It can be used to trade up on enemies with better weapons during eco rounds, deny predictable play if enemies stage in the same areas round after round, or punish a 5-man push if they don't respect your ult and clump up on one angle. It definitely results in kills more than some of our other ults, but it's gated into specific windows in a way that I find myself thinking how to use it and play around it round to round.
None of this is to say you're wrong - we CARE about how you feel, and recognize that getting killed by a rocket launcher isn't the first thing you think of when you hear "tactical shooter". But, we've been playing with Raze internally for years and have felt that her kit does provide an interesting tactical texture to the game; she has lots of lethal pressure, but its constrained in a lot of other ways (tight time windows, range-gated, line of sight, etc.)
Once again - this is just my take, and I'm not a designer. But hopefully hearing some more of our perspectives on this stuff can help you all understand where we're coming from as we continue to have these conversations with you all. We hear you and care about your thoughts on this.
So what you are saying is against a Raze you forfeit control of up to 70% of the map just because she has ultimate. I say 70% because essentially all of the maps proceed into chokes either at the round start walls or right in between them. On either side, it frankly doesn't matter, if your "solution" is what is opted into for organized play then everyone on the team with Raze ult gets a free pass to just push up. On Split this will give a HUGE advantage as it gives them control of mid essentially for free. On Haven and Bind it is more complicated to describe what real estate is gained for free because it depends on whether you or on T or CT side with her ult but either way it gets you free control of a significant portion of the map.
Just to reiterate, it is not using her ult that gives her this advantage - which I would find quite reasonable (to an extent that is basically what Phoenix's ult does). Instead it is just the threat of it existing that gives you this benefit, because as you said you need to concede territory without even knowing if it will be used at the start of the round.
I am entirely open to ideas on how that is healthy.
Yeah, I hear you on this - ceding ground all the time isn't a viable strategy. I'm not a designer, so I'm not an authority on this, but I can speak to my experience at least - I hope it can help a bit. There's two things that I personally have found in spaces like this:
One, it helps a lot that Raze doesn't start the game with her ult - you've gotta play a few rounds before then. By then, I know where Raze has historically been playing, and I respect that portion of the map a bit more instead of ceding everything. She can obviously mix-up and show up elsewhere, but then hopefully we have a bit of information that can help my team on the other side of the map by inferring which agent she could've swapped with. There are basic abilities that also create "invisible pressure" like that - Sova's dart being a prime example. Obviously Raze's ult's output is a lot more severe, so I feel your frustration, but I do think it can lead to some interesting tactics if both teams are playing around that information and using it to inform decisions.
Two, the counterplay bleeds into itself on both sides to the point where it becomes more of a cycle again. Teams may expect you to cede a little ground in the first few seconds of the round due to Raze ult, so they push up without using it - so then maybe you lurk and wait for them to push and punish, expecting them not to use it - etc.
Later on in the mastery curve, we do see this tension with some ultimates, where players consider the power of sitting on them for tactical pressure, but in doing so lessen their chances of getting another usage in that half... compared to using them as often as possible for tempo. I don't feel Raze is a prime candidate here, personally - she exerts some invisible pressure early on in rounds, but playing standard defaults and using some utility early can weed out instances of Razes flying out and surprising you right as the round starts. Generally we see this more with agents like Sova or Cypher - Sova can hold his ult to punish Sage's Resurrect, or Cypher may hold his ult until he has a high value ult instead of revealing just 1 or 2 enemies.
I hear you on the idea of invisible pressure using the threat of the ult over the ult itself, and maybe Raze is creating too much pressure right now, but I don't think the idea of that is always fundamentally bad for the game as long as players on both sides feel like they have sufficient options.
I'm picking up what you're putting down - there is a cost-reward to sitting on an ultimate like that for the threat and I recognize that. I also know that in the video he specifically mentions wanting to reach a point where she is not a "must pick" character for all comps.
My two big points are: First, just that she is currently the only character with this function and as such in order for her to reach the point where she is not a must-pick she will have to be weakened significantly. Second if/when she is not the only character like this then what is the game going to be like? Two characters staggering their ultimates which either gain free map area or get a huge advantage by picking up kills for free only seconds into the round will be very problematic.
I am fully aware that this falls under a "slippery slope" fallacy and that there is still a cost to only having one Raze on your team (I often feel it when I am entirely unable to smoke, flash, heal, reveal, etc. because I am just a damage machine), much less having 2 should we find out in the future that she has a sister. Having two characters who are "selfish" on your team would be quite painful from a team play perspective. I just think that the consistency, speed, and magnitude of her damage output when played well is just far too much.
Yeah, I totally feel you on this.
For your first point - yeah, Raze is the only character who has such lethal punishes, even if she's gated in applying them. I do think Phoenix, Jett, and Sova can apply some "invisible pressure" at round start with their ults, but it's less severe so I feel you. I think you hinted at my response here later in your comment, but our hope is that accessing that power should come with tradeoffs that do feel meaningful - giving up a Sage's stall/heal power or a Viper's zone control to get Raze's lethality should feel like an interesting choice. To your point, if it feels like not a choice at all, we've f*cked up and should swing in with some changes. I think we're all on the same page here.
To your second point, yeah I agree that we have to be methodical in how we add things like this. Ultimates are allowed to be disruptive, as we want them to feed into a team's tactical decision making loop for each round, but if there are too many that exert the same type of pressure then the game can feel samey or uninteresting. I do hope that we continue to provide interesting tradeoffs between agents so that the solution would never be "stack as many agents like Raze as you can", but we are definitely keeping stuff like this in mind - we want to provide a good spectrum of output types here.
As a final note, to give you a look inside our heads right now - the actual data of game balance and game state is changing very rapidly, because you all are all learning the game right now. That includes characters, but also things like weapons and maps - so what may have seemed weak last week may seem strong now, or vice versa. Our dev team here is pretty good, but you all will be better than us very quickly, so we also want to make sure we're giving the game some time to breathe so we can be confident in the changes we make. BUT, we also need to balance that with how everyone feels - we want you all to be having fun, and don't want to make you play a sh*tty experience because we're waiting for everything to settle. So we're wrestling both of those things on top of everything else, if that makes sense.
the point is that if you react properly to it then it's chip damage. i don't understand how that can be such a hard concept to grasp for so many people LOL
the character is made for area denial and chip damage, because people are supposed to MOVE when they hear the nades, not just stand still and take it. a raze nade should never kill you unless you're in a terrible position in the first place or don't react properly to it.
the entire video is essentially just a "get good", because that's what it's gonna take. i'm guessing raze will always be a little too good in lower mmr, but towards the upper half of the rankings she'll just be a normal agent like anyone else.
^
The thing is, I get your point that you have to play around her abilities etc (which i dont agree with, because it feels too strong when the whole team has to play around character). But secondly, there are many players complaining about her. It is basically one of the bigger critiques of this game at the moment. She is just too strong and frustrating to play against and there is no fun in it. Im having nightmares about the ‚beep beep beeps‘ and then im dead.. Are there any ideas to already to adress this? Balance changes?
And yeah, for me personally, im worried that you gonna introduce more characters like this, and the game will be a nightmare to play against, being scared everywhere one the map to get one hitted and needed to ‚play around‘ her kit..
Oh yeah, I'm trying to speak to the philosophy on paper but that doesn't mean that we don't care about the pain players are experiencing. The balance team is committed to making the game numerically balanced as well as an enjoyable experience, and we hear the frustration around Raze. We're definitely looking at some changes to make soon.
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