[2021] A Brand New Rank System Concept

Original Post — Direct link

Core Idea

Rank can never define a player's skill, higher rank doesn't always mean better player. Instead rank should be a proof of your grind, a symbol that tell people you've spent time in the game and how much you improve. Rank should motivate you!

How does it work?

You gain RR for a win, but you won't lose or gain any RR for a lost
Add more division in every rank and raise the RR it takes for promotion
Solo/Duo queue and Party queue have separate rank.
- Duo queue Restriction is base on hidden MMR
- Party queue have no restrictrion
The amount of RR you gain is strongly effected by your hidden MMR in relative to your current rank
When every act end players get push down rank but hidden MMR remains the same
Match making is only based on hidden MMR and the rank won't be show during game .(just like our current system)
Top diamonds, Immortals and Radiants system remains the same as the current one.

Ok, after seeing that you won't lose any RR for a lost you might think this is a sh*t post, but the key here is "RR gains is strongly effected by hidden MMR". In first glance this system looks like a grind to win so let's set an example. Disclaimer: all the numbers is just for example and can be tweaked

Bob is a player with hidden MMR in bronze and maintaining a 50% win rate , which means in the system's eye Bob is consider a bronze player. He started his grind in bronze1, since the shown rank is match with his hidden rank, the system gives him a decent amount of RR for his win. With 0 RR lost for a lost match, he climb all the way to silver1 in 20 wins, which is 40 game. Now Bob is in silver1, he dreams to climb to gold but he is not improving, he still only maintain a 50% win rate with hidden MMR being bronze, so the system gives him lesser and lesser RR for a win. Bob is indeed a grinder, it took him a warping 100 win, which is 200 games to finally achieve gold1. Now due to Bob still not improving, the system gave him such little RR each win that for him to hit plat it will take him 250 win, Before it happened, the act ends and Bob get reset to bronze and gain a act triangle with a couple gold doritos.

George on the other hand is a player with hidden MMR in Diamond and maintaining a 50% win rate. He started his climb on Gold1, due to his hidden MMR being Diamond, it only took him 5 win, which is 10 games to hit plat, and then it took him 15 win, which is 30 games to hit diamond. Now his hidden MMR is matched with his rank, he gains a normal amount of RR for a win. It took him 20 wins which is 40 games to hit diamond5. But George is not improving, he is still being matched against diamond and can't compete with immortals, so due to the diamond5 system being the same as the current one, he will lose an amount of RR for every game he had lost, this result in him being hard stuck Diamond5 till the end of the act. The act ends, George get reset to gold and gain a Diamond act triangle with 2 immortal doritos on top due to lucky win streak.

This two examples demonstrate how the system works, the most important philosophy here is the separation of hidden rank and shown rank. Hidden rank is use for match making, and shown rank is use for showing not only a general skill level but also how much time a player had dedicated in Valorant.

How will the system effect different kind of players?

Low elo player
- even if you are not improving cause you play with 30 fps, as long as you keep playing, the rank will reflect your dedication. You won't be yeet into iron after a lose streak in silver.
High elo player (Plat to Diamond)
- hitting plat and diamond is already amazing and you won't wanna get yeet back to gold after lose streak, luckily you won't. There's is no need for rank fear and create alt account to smurf, you can happily play the game and fully focus on improving.
Top player(mid/high immortals and radiant)
- you won't feel any difference since the system is same as the current one. For you guys worrying about the leaderboard get filled with a bunch of diamond grinders, it won' happen, cause as long as their MMR didn't rise, they will lose way more then they will gain and eventually hard stuck top diamond which is not even in the leader board.
Player that are improving
- when your win rate rise and your hidden MMR rise, you will find yourself gaining decent amount of RR as you climb, let's say this act it took you 80 games to climb from bronze to gold, when the next act start, since your hidden MMR had raise to gold, it may only took you 20 game to climb from bronze to gold, and you will have more time left in the act to try to hit plat.
Grinders
- For a extreme example not considering if it is even possible, a player whose hidden MMR is iron and had a 50% win rate, had grind himself a full gold triangle. It probably took him 500 wins which is 1000 games. I think in this case, the gold triangle reflect how much time and dedication he spent on the game. You won't consider his skill is gold, but 1000 games? Let the man have his gold badge.
- Realistically it's just flat out impossible to hit diamond with hidden MMR being bronze in a course of an act, even if you did grind those 1000 games, your skill had bound to improve and your hidden MMR will rise.
Boosted players
- when your win rate and hidden MMR start dropping, you will begin to notice the RR gain being lesser and lesser, yeah you may still be able to climb due to how the system work, but the speed of your climb will drastically decrease if your hidden MMR kept dropping. Every new act you will find yourself taking longer and longer to hit your boosted rank, and eventually impossible to hit it during a course of an act.

How does the system make you feel in contrast of the current one?

Not touching on the match making problem, which is not the rank system's fault. The current system just straight up feel demotivating, in my opinion this is caused by two things. 1. The match making is only based on hidden MMR. 2. The system is constantly trying to let the rank represent your skill by converging it to you MMR. The difference of shown rank and true rank is what generating so much bad feeling for the current rank system. And all those feeling lead to demotivation, "why does I gain 19 and lose 30? ", "why am i matching with gold teammate and against diamonds?"

Basically all of the problem with the current rank system is generated because it tries to make rank represent your skill, which I've stated it shouldn't be like that. A rank could never fully define a player's skill, especially in a team game with different aspect of skills. With such little division of each rank, you could be a plat3 with immortal aim, you could play like a plat today and a diamond other day, it just became a mess when you try to mark every player with a certain rank.

So the core idea of the new system is, instead of trying to represent you skill, rank should be a goal for you. You should be motivative and awarded by the rank system, it should be able to not only reflect your general level of skill but also the dedication you've put into.

Under the new system, due to 0 RR loss, you won't get the feeling of progress getting rob away when encountering smurf or afk teammates. you won't feel like you enter elo hell again after unlucky lose streak. And for skill representing, you will generally know a player belongs to low elo if they struggle to get to gold every single act, and the players on the leader board probably won't change much either.

Problems that the system can't fully solve

Match making
- Match making problem is based on hidden MMR, not the RR system. I think separate solo/duo queue and 5 stacks will help this out but it could never be fully fixed
Smurf
- Smurf will always be there in a free to play game. But what the system will do is take away the feeling of RR getting robbed and help you quickly move on to next game.
afks and thrower
- this is probably the biggest problem of the system, because of 0 RR lost there will be some assholes who thinks it is ok to leave the game and throw. In order to solve this, there will have to be a more efficient system to identify these players, and make them lose RR or ban them.

External link →

about 4 years ago - /u/EvrMoar - Direct link

Originally posted by sbmaruf

"Riot has one of the best MMR based ranking systems that has been proven to work for its intention, which is creating balanced games and getting players to their true elo/rank. They spent years developing and tuning the system in LOL." -- This is legacy. There is a term called, "Legacy system". In soft. dev. and also algorithm design, there are no valid proof that a legacy system will work on a new framework. Having good LOL Rating System doesn't mean that will work on valorant also. It seems like you are blindly backing up riot without any proof. Also there's difference between RIOT and VALORANT dev.

"Reddiors posting about “all the bugs and the broken rank system” means nothing. People come to Reddit to complain about the system because they can’t climb due to their own skill ...." - I think this is also one of your biased view. You need to show evidence. Say for example, I was in an account in X rank. Winning a match gives me Y amount of RI and loosing reduced Y*2 rating decreased. I thought this is because of I am stuck in the rank and I don't deserve better ranking. Later I created a new account, got Y+3 rank up and consistently playing within Y+3 rank without any problem. Don't you think Riot rating system is broken? I am just showing evidence here. You telling about random stupid people's stupidity doesn't mean RATING system is not broken.

"also Riot has released plenty of information about the ranking system, RR, and hidden MMR. You can find that information in posts from Rioters or by googling. Everything short of the exact equation has been given." -- Can you send me the link? I can't find it. Remember I was expecting valorant rating system description.

Please don't reply unless you don't have any evidence, proof or concrete stuffs. I was kind of expecting matured and educated reply here.

You can look at my post history to get info about how the ranked system works.

We didn't use the league system, we had a new system created for Valorant. In fact people with brains way more wrinkly then mine, with masters and phd's in mathematics, helped build the system - this is also true of microsofts true skill(most games use this) and other MMR systems, they are extremely complex.

Also, even tho the math is complex the concept of how MMR "works" is I think a little beat up and over analyzed. MMR is just a mathmatical way to determine how much you progress over an opponent when you win/lose to them - MMR is also used to match players against each other fairly. MMR is just a ladder, if you win you go up and push others down. While yes, the math is complex, the concept is very simple.

This new ranked system post is interesting, but the biggest issue is that it does allow ranked inflation. The problem is there are usually 3 reward types players look for: Money, Skill, or Time. Ranked is a pure skill based system, and we try to make it so money or time have no effect on your ranked skill reward. The problem is that lots of players, when they reach their actual skill level, still want to be rewarded. This is where players try to ask for a Time reward, or want it, even if they don't realize that's what they are asking for.

Also I see a few posts about people making new accounts, or getting higher ranks when making new accounts. We've actually investigated this. The hardest part is that it looks like these players are playing better on their new accounts, or also changing who they are grouping with. When you group with people it can impact you positively, but it can also impact you in a negative way. Also, most ranked systems actually take 100's or 1000's of games to even get close to your true skill. So if both accounts are actually played the same amount of games, they usually end up converging(we've seen this when tracking two accounts played by the same person, that initially place at different ranks).

Anyways, I hope that helps. I try to help people understand what's happening.

about 4 years ago - /u/EvrMoar - Direct link

Originally posted by sbmaruf

We didn't use the league system, we had a new system created for Valorant. In fact people with brains way more wrinkly then mine, with masters and phd's in mathematics, helped build the system - this is also true of microsofts true skill(most games use this) and other MMR systems, they are extreme

Hi! Thanks for the reply. I read most of the discussion and felt that you guyz know what you are doing. Definitely at this point I felt bad about what I accused you guyz earlier and felt I was triggered to become toxic. I should definitely say sorry for false acquisition.

Moving on from there, I believe there are lots of Corner cases like having two magnets that might need to be considered. Because in worst case scenario when MMR ratio becomes 2:1 or 3:1, the account becomes un-playable and an immediate soft reset is required for the account to keep continuing.

The problem is that lots of players, when they reach their actual skill level, still want to be rewarded. This is where players try to ask for a Time reward, or want it, even if they don't realize that's what they are asking for. -- In my personal opinion (don't consider I'm imposing this, just my thought), I don't want to think it like this way. Different people may have different level of adaptability thus some people may learn to shoot and aim quickly (or with the help of third party software). There should not be any concept of True rank rather, a relative comparison of all the players in the system and the rank.

Also at your position, doing small survey in a regular interval (a post match, in every 5 match) about few "happy factor" will give you "true lable" about player satisfactory metric which you can use to build better system in next iteration. As the game is free, You should be able to avoid the ethical questions of doing small survey on your customer. An example: for messenger, facebook still ask their customer after a post call, about how much did they like about their call. It's a 1-2 sec. survey that let's them find so many bugs and problem in the system.

I still believes that you guyz could go ahead with a small technical manuscript (example: http://www.glicko.net/glicko/glicko2.pdf. BTW glico-2 rating system is an improvement of the elo rating system) how you are maintaining the ranking system or even arrange a hackathon/"google hash code" like event (if you don't have any metric for evaluation of your system, as you collect the Happy factors from the customers, it becomes easy to arrange) to get feedback from the community.

Finally, really I appreciate your reply here and it means that you really care about what you are building. And I should not disrespect any effort of such people. I am sorry for that. I wish you good luck and more success.

I should definitely say sorry for false acquisition.

No worries! I don't respond to posts when I get the sense they are just hating to hate, or enjoy bashing something because they are upset. I like to try and respond if I see that people are "passionately frustrated". When you can tell people really enjoy the game, when they give feedback that sounds upset they do so because they care about the game so much. I think it's valuable to engage that feedback, because if someone just hates to hate it makes it very difficult to improve the game(they already made have their opinion, they just find reasons to keep adding fuel to it).

So no worries, I didn't take it as you being toxic!

Because in worst case scenario when MMR ratio becomes 2:1 or 3:1, the account becomes un-playable and an immediate soft reset is required for the account to keep continuing.

This is true, but can also be changed pretty quick. MMR doesn't hard stick you. Yes there is a confidence system but if you start winning and show you've increased in skill it loosens. Also MMR will let you move up if you win against opponents above you, because it's a ladder at the end of the day. Yes you feel hardstuck, but if you were to actually start winnning more you would flip your gains the other direction(positive net gains).

The issue I think is that sometimes players can winstreak, and increase in skill, so fast that they stay ahead of their MMR. So we do see players get ahead of their MMR, then suddenly win something like 10+ games. Then even tho their MMR is increasing, it's not increasing to keep up with their Ranked Rating. We have adjustments for this, but that doesn't help the perception of being stuck. Because a player just sees +15/-23 for 10 games, but that also means their MMR is increasing to keep them at those gains(otherwise if they really were being held back they would just get less and less for a win and more and more for a loss).

There should not be any concept of True rank rather, a relative comparison of all the players in the system and the rank.

I agree with this, that being said players often fall into their true rank only because of the effort or ability to keep improving. Yes eventually you will get to a rank where your "current skill" is at, but even if you are playing non-stop the rest of the community is also playing the game along with you. So you have to improve faster then those around you. We see most players actually fall to a 50% win rate when at their MMR, and they don't move much. This could be because players don't know how to improve, don't care to focus on improving, or aren't improving faster then the rest of the community. So while there is no "true skill" and the system doesn't have that belief, it happens on its own because players often hit their skill ceiling and don't end up raising that ceiling for themselves.

Also at your position, doing small survey in a regular interval

We actually do conduct surveys, you have to opt-into riot emails on your account. We have a data insight/analytics team that handles these. I don't know the exact reason why we don't do immediate after match feedback, but knowing other titles that have done it, it usually ends up complaining about the match outcome and not the system as a whole. The only data we got from running this, on projects I've worked on previously, were "I win I'm happy, I lose I'm mad". That being said, it's an interesting problem and maybe it just hasn't been tackled correctly. I'm also not the data/insights team, so I'm not sure their stance on it :)

I still believes that you guyz could go ahead with a small technical manuscript

I like Glicko! I actually really like True Skill 2, I think it's one of my favorites. The biggest problem with our system is that we spent a lot of time, and money, and resources building it - when most companies license other systems. We enjoy players having a harder time not knowing how to manipulate, if we fixed an exploit that was being used, etc. There is also some level of making it so competitors can't copy our work, since we aren't licensing our system for others to use. I'm not sure of all the concerns about that kind of stuff, but I understand the reasoning. It's also difficult because when you open up stuff to be scrutinized, or looked at, it's more of a learning tool for those groups and we may or may not see benefit from it. We would be hoping that top minds in the field, with PHD's in mathematics, etc. would look at it and give us advice/analyze the system. But at that point, why aren't we just investing money into hiring those people to have them work on the system.

I like the idea, it's just a lot of time and effort to see a maybe benefit - with the huge chance that people just complain about things they don't understand and we have to spend lots of time educating people instead of actually making the system better. Who knows tho, it's an interesting thought for sure. All of this is my opinion, so I may be missing other reasons for or against it.

Finally, really I appreciate your reply here

It takes two to tango! Thank you for engaging the community, and letting your feedback be known. We wouldn't have a game if people didn't play it, and we wouldn't have a good game if people weren't passionate about it(imo). Having these discussions helps all of us have a better game, and hopefully we all can make Valorant better :)

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