Original Post — Direct link

This is more of a theory than a claim. I'm open to any contrary opinion or facts I could be forgetting.

Imagine two players. Their true ranks is high plat and they are both climbing for the first time. They are gold atm and this is the highest rank they've achieved.

The first player is match mvp 9 out of 10 times. He tries his best, carries as much as he can. The second player is never match mvp, plays while listening to music, couldn't care less.

The system knows that the first player is actually high plat. And despite the fact that he's still in gold, his lobbies are mostly plat3-d3. Sure he gets a lot of points for winning, but his win rate is 50%, since there's a bunch of d3 in his lobbies.

The system does not know the true rank of the second player. It could think he's somewhat plat but he's average while in gold so he could be in his right rank. His lobbies are mostly gold and low plat. His games are easy and he could be getting match mvp if he was paying any attention to the game.

So when the rank up game comes, the first player is tested against diamond and the second player is tested against plat. Since they are both (actually) high plat, the first one loses, the second one ranks up.

Which is why we see such a huge difference in skill within the same rank. You have silvers who are HS machines getting MVPs in high gold-low plat and that dude you have no idea how they reached diamond.

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almost 3 years ago - /u/EvrMoar - Direct link

Originally posted by sorahketsu

Thing is, my alt was playing against silver and gold. My main was playing against gold while I was bronze and plat when I was silver. The MMR in my alt was completely different. My real rank at that time was low gold. I could not reach plat back then. But I was playing against plats in order to reach gold. I was truly not a plat player. I could not win against a plat player. But there were no plat players in my alt even when I reached gold2.

I see the comment "Reroll/Make an Alt and you will rank up" - fun fact we actually researched this!

In a sense, you have to end up somewhere when you make an account. You will either end up below, at the same, or above the rank you were on your main. That being said you have less than a 40% chance to end up above the rank of your main if you roll a new account. Even when we tried to validate if this was a real issue the math just didn't add up. We even went as far as removing anything in the MMR system that would give the perception or feeling of being hardstuck, at the beginning of episode 3.

So yes, if you make an alt account there is a chance you will end up above your main in rank; this is because you rank will fall somewhere. BUT you have much higher chance ending up below your current rank then you do above your current rank.

The only stat that I've seen in terms of "Do this to rank up!" is play more Valorant. In every game I've ever worked on the people who play the most are the highest MMR. Play the game and you will get better, if you hit a brick wall do some VOD reviews and keep going!

almost 3 years ago - /u/EvrMoar - Direct link

This is an interesting theory! I'm not going to say it isn't possible, but it's very unlikely and that's because of what other people pointed out "Convergence". We multiply your gains/losses by your MMR/Rank difference and it pushes you to your MMR.

The system is technically putting their MMR at the level they are playing at. If the chill player is truly "playing relaxed" the system will put his MMR where he belongs when he's playing relaxed. That means he may be a high plat player, but the system puts him in low plat MMR. He isn't winning more often because he's a high plat player in low mmr, he's winning the same amount as the high plat player because of how MMR works. Yes he may be able to "Turn On" and may be able to climb after essentially tanking his MMR, but it just moves his MMR to high plat and he would be in the same spot as the try hard player.

No matter what convergence will make it so your rank matches your MMR. Some players take 10 games to get their rank to their MMR some take 20+. It can't be avoided, so far in all of our data just playing ranked and trying your best will get you where you belong. I do really like the idea tho, and it's a theory that I tested when we built the system! Have to make sure we don't have ranked exploits, or reasons to purposefully tank your MMR :)

almost 3 years ago - /u/EvrMoar - Direct link

Originally posted by Selfishtank

While I dont agree with your post because the point I believe you tried to make is imho incorrect I can agree with MMR and ranking up system being broken.

I am Immortal player that recently started playing on Iron smurf. I am now Immortal on that smurf as well, took me around 150-200 games with being around 80-90% winrate all the way to platinum, about 70% winrate from plat to diamond and about 60% winrate from diamond to Immortal. My KD fluctuated from 2 at lower ranks to 1.35 now while hitting Immortal.

I am literally match MVP STILL at Immotal rank most of the games ( right now my match history is only 2 games which I was not MVP). Which is not that much of a suprise to me since even though I am only Immortal 40RR points on my main account its because I havnt really played actively lately and didnt try. Used to be Radiant in Season1Episode2...

My main point right now is this - for someone who skyrockets from Iron to Immortal while hard carrying most of the games and still havnt hit the wall of my true rank I am STILL and was this WHOLE journey getting less RR for winning than when actually losing.

I am getting about 16-20 rr for a win (20 must be a really big stomp like 13-2)

And on my main account, with 40% winrates and 0.8 kd (also duelists only) I am getting about 25 rr for wins and losing about 15. I have been hardstuck on my main account in LOW immortal for about a year (even though I played only about 30-50 games MAX each season)

So how exactly does your performance affect your MMR? - My guess? not at all, I feel like your MMR is only affected by your PEAK rating that you hit on that account. And it always pushes you towards it no matter how shitty you are or how well you play against these ranks.
Once you hit your peak rating , you start getting less RR - in a way the game makes you actually work for rankups when its against your favor.

No way I would be getting less RR than for losing on an account with 35 wins 4 loss in last 39 games and 37x match mvp if the system isnt broken which was at one point on that Iron smurf.

The lower ranks have heavier "Encounter" MMR and the higher ranks have heavier "Win/Loss" MMR.

Encounter = Performance based MMR

Win/Loss = Win/Loss based MMR

Honestly playing 200 games probably helped push you to just be better, I would not be surprised if you went back on your main and put in that much effort if you didn't climb. That being said, if you get hard stuck in immortal+ it's a combo of you not winning more than those above you, as well as your performance not being as high as theirs. The leaderboard is built to try and force your point values to match your MMR, so you can't out grind the leaderboard and earn a position you don't deserve.

almost 3 years ago - /u/EvrMoar - Direct link

Originally posted by gabexscape

Riot Game titles are the only games that seem to have the most lamest rank system. I'm saying this as a person who played league back when Guinsoo was talking on irc chat and pendragon was monitoring the boards. Also someone who played valorant from beta key drops.

Valorant is a bit easier since your impact can be much higher. However, there is so much emphasis on being 'good' and pro play pushed by riot games (for sales) that the majority of players just autolock rank before they learn the game. There is so much catering to pro play that it just seems like there is not much room for casual play.

The mmr / rank matchmaking doesn't account for anything when it comes to new players. The assumption it makes on players skill is trash. I hit plat 2 in valorant almost immediately in early episodes without even knowing how to play the game. I was pretty new to shooters and it has taken me a long time to learn fundamentals.

One thing you have said that is absolutely correct. Play more games, play tons and tons of games...

Spending a billion hours in the game doesn't = high rank tho. It just so happens the best players also play the most because they're so good at the game. That's more of a coincidence.

But please lets not pretend there aren't massively addictive league / valorant players that are hard stuck bronze / silver that play 3 life-time worth of games.

You have to play to learn. Not just mindlessly play.

Glad you've been a fan for so long, I've only been at Riot for a year. I also have played league since beta, and have an original copy of league sitting behind me!(I actually met pendragon at a pub crawl in pax 2011!)

I think it's difficult to argue what a "good ranked" system is by opinion. What games have systems that aren't lame? I don't think I've seen a community not complain about ranked, not that it should be an excuse for the problems players in Valorant face. In terms of comparing us to league, I didn't even talk to league when we reworked the rank system. Our match making, MMR system, and point gains/losses are completely different than leagues. Of course we have a 1-100 rank up system, but we went that route because it's easy to understand(we can make the number be whatever we want).

In terms of pushing pro play, ranked also has no say or impact on that. We didn't design anything for pro play, or to push sales. How we design in the competitive space is to say "Hey what is the goal of ranked" and ensure that we are following those goals. We also try to say "What type of players do we want to create an experience for"; obviously when making ranked we are developing for competitive players. I think it's okay for a competitive player to want to play ranked, even if they don't fully grasp the game; this is why ranks even exist. There will be ranks where players who aren't ready to be high rank, maybe have just okay aim, or no game sense. Competitive isn't a queue for veteran players only, the goal of the queue is to find your skill level while providing fair matches.

I say the "more time = more MMR" knowing that yes there are players that will actually get hardstuck. I also understand the correlation vs causation topics in that piece of info I dropped. I'll be honest, I don't have the true answer or a deep dive in player skill development. What I do have is experience on shooters, and have seen lots of data working on some of the biggest shooters in the world. I think in shooters more time = higher MMR, more so than a game like league. I'm sure there will be players that get hardstuck, and aim/reaction time will always need game sense to compensate, but playing the game will develop gamesense. Yes VOD reviews help, yes coaches help etc. At the end of the day, the best training will be playing the game. It just may not be the most effective training for everyone.

I could be completely wrong, I understand our highest engaged players also tend to be higher rank. I just share that info from a shooter perspective given data I've worked with across multiple titles, not just Valorant. I just like to throw out that opinion for people who are looking for ways to improve, but think there is a magic video or coach that will help them get there; yes those things help but playing the game is probably more important than watching a youtube video.

I do think it's an extremely interesting space and would love to learn more, maybe someday I'll get to work more in the player skill improvement space and learn what makes a good player tick :)

almost 3 years ago - /u/EvrMoar - Direct link

Originally posted by gabexscape

In general, the rank experience is better in Valorant vs League. Since you've been around league just as long you probably could attest to that. It boils down to a players impact and the feeling of being able to carry or help carry games based of your effective contributions vs the feeling of losing games where you played amazing, but still lose just because 'kek team game'. There's too many variables in League while you can climb and win the entire process is not fun. I'm saying that as someone who climbed up relatively high (high diamond). You can have mega feeders in League, or just generally people who give up or tilt so run it down, the list goes on.

Valorant is a shooter though I was mostly comparing rank system and how a players impact feels in game. In Valorant, your impact feels much higher the better you become and it feels more easier to carry games, especially if you're smurfing.

Because you use an elo system, the rank system can for sure feel yoyo bally sometimes. I'm not going to tell you how to make a better system, but it's not fun sometimes it can be rough.

I don't feel like pro play push has effected balancing as much in Valorant in comparison. In fact, the general balancing of Valorant is the reason why I continue to play it. There isn't too much over nerfing or over buffing.

However, I actually disagree with the feeling / pressure to play comp in Riot titles. It for sure is more prevalent. I can say about 90% of my friends solely play comp, good or bad. I don't play comp at all anymore but get pressured into playing the majority of time if I play better than my friends in the few unrated games I play. This is particularly why I play solo queue or on different accounts just to avoid comp haha.

There's just this need of validation, to be 'good' and the only way that can be achieved is a rank rating worth sharing. Many of my friends can't even explain whether they are competitive or not, they play comp.

You say it's okay to jump right into rank, but there is an overwhelmingly high amount of people who don't play to learn. This I noticed is way more prevalent in riot titles. I'm not sure why haha. It could be because it's f2p game.

But I suspect it's because how often riot highlights / promotes pro gamers. Everyone wants to be like Tenz and so on, even before learning the fundamentals.

This also tends to also breed toxicity, especially in rank because of players having over inflated egos with skills that do not match it. I'm enjoying my time playing unrated but ngl it's getting a little to easy as the better players are in comp.

It's very hard to explain. But overall experience I personally felt is I am for sure 100% very competitive in games and strive to learn and get better. But I don't play comp anymore because I do not enjoy playing with toxic players who often bark more they bite and choose to spend their time shitting on their team rather than learning the game.

I wish there were more coaching guides and content related to learning directly pushed by riot. Or at least something that promotes the message learning and failing is okay.

Cheers.

P.S: Nice to meet you I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

I'm super busy, I love the feedback and you bring up some awesome points. I just wanted you to know I saw your response and thinking about some of the things you brought up.

have a good one, and hopefully I'll see you around!

almost 3 years ago - /u/EvrMoar - Direct link

Originally posted by Selfishtank

Hmm Im sorry for answering so late but I think you missed my point. I am certain I wouldnt be stuck on my main and its not about rank. Its about MMR or more specifically about RR gains/losses.

Imagine two accounts - both immortal 50rr.

One is 30 rr and used to be Radiant but the player is crap consistently for 6 months with negative KD and winrate but gets way more RR for wins than losing.

Other is 30 rr as well and its peak best rating the account ever had. Player on this account has been insane KDs consitently and has positive winrate but gets on average 8-10 less RR for winning equal games.

There is something really weird going on. Either MMR system is broken completely or it takes hundreds of games played to have any effect on it.

Since its been 10 days since the last post I can confirm that I played about next 20-30 games and started duoQing with my friend now as well (on 2nd account the insane KD winrate one) The mmr have not changed one bit, I am still losing more points then gaining while maintaining on average positive KD and winrates so something is just not right. Currently around 100rr

/edit fun fact: I remembered I used to have a third smurf that I havnt played on for months - its got diamond1 rank after placement and played duoQ with my friend that hasnt played since Act1Episode1 in which he hit only diamond1. Now after placement he got platinum3. We as duo of dia1 and plat3 are getting matched in full Immortal3 lobbies and gaining 30rr for wins losing 12 for loses. Its totally scuffed. My friend has like 8/20 score every game for 30 games and the mmr is not going down for him :D

I understand what you're saying, my main point is that you assume your MMR is higher or lower or doing things without actually knowing what it's doing. Which I understand is a complaint we hear often, but I won't dive into the MMR/Rank debate about that(I have a ton of comments focusing on that).

MMR is a ladder, if you lose you go down if you win you go up. If you truly are losing games you will go down the ladder, there is no stopping it. In your hypothetical if a radiant lost that many games they would not be radiant. They MIGHT be able to combat that loss by doing really well and keeping their encounter MMR high, but 30 games and how important win/loss MMR is at that rank, they would definitely drop in MMR hard.

There is no imaginary number or system that holds people back, or holds people up. It's simply how you are performing compared to all the other players on the ladder. MMR is just you standing on a rung of the ladder, and your MMR pulls your rank to it. We've done studies on the exact issue you are talking about, and at the end of the day when you make another account you have to end up somewhere(below, at, or above your main). What we do know is that if you make an Alt account you are more than 60% likely to end up below the rank of your main, among other complex stats we have, and investigations into stories and accounts just like yours; we are confident that performance from account to account is a big reason why people earn different ranks on various accounts. We can probably research this more, and we look into that data quiet often, it's just not as overblown or a huge issue as some people make it out to be.

That being said it doesn't feel good when it happens, and there will be always weird edgecases that raise eyebrows and need investigating. Right now tho, based on the data we've looked at, there is no hard stuck players in lower or higher ranks.(in fact our MMR system has systems in place to try and prevent people from being hard stuck, I think I talked about this in a previous comment I'll try and comeback and link it when I have time)