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The problem is that this solely relies on wins/losses but doesn't account for individual performance at all.
Individual performance should matter to some extent.
The problem is that this solely relies on wins/losses but doesn't account for individual performance at all.
Individual performance should matter to some extent.
Wanted to clarify that individual performance (having an outsized impact on helping your team win) is taken into account for all ranks outside of Immortal or Radiant. This means playing particularly well will help you rank up faster, making the system less grindy to reach a rank that reflects your skill, along with helping us get smurfs into higher skilled games more quickly.
Over time the amount we weight performance does decrease as we start having enough games (data points) to hone in on your skill, but you can still rank up (or down) slightly faster based on performance even with many games played.
EvrMoar is such a great person, he devotes a lot of time for the community and I'm grateful for his responses.
Now onto you @TimeJustHappens... You just pointed out "above plat" while I never specified I'm talking about that since I never reached that high lol. I'm talking about experience just as much as the guy in the Permalink you provided says... every couple of games here and there I'm matched with or against someone whose probably is a smurf (I admit I could be wrong here).
Also, I know some people (friends of a friend who are in the same discord channel), that are high Gold that have at least other 4 accounts (started low Iron) to play with other lower ranks in our channel.. so yeah, my perception is that there are plenty of Smurfs out there, not every game, but plenty.
EvrMoar is such a great person
No u.
As for smurf talk, I do think the perception of smurfs is a little overblown(as I stated in my other comment). That being said it doesn't help that there are still smurfs. Every time we talk about design changes, smurfing is considered and I never want to push design that incentivizes smurfing.
Group restrictions loosening is a great example. While we got overwhelming feedback, people want to play with their friends, we also saw people felt the need to smurf to do so. Since ranked puts you into Iron, Bronze, and Silver most often after placements - it makes it easy to roll a new account and end up smurfing in those ranks. So by restricting those ranks, we were incentivizing players to just make a new account and get dumped out in one of those lower ranks to play with lower ranked friends. By opening up the group restrictions we actually get more people playing on their main accounts, and then we can also use their actual MMR they've been building up on their main to get more fair matches.
It's small decisions like this, that are positive for the community but also help reduce the reasons a player may smurf. That being said, we have more to come and will always be trying to reduce the reasons players feel the need to smurf. We are currently investigating how to give 5 stacks a competitive experience :)
I literally just finished rewriting the part of my document explaining MMR and RR. Riot out here trying to steal my job.
I'd like to think the article was encouraged in part because of confusion on the subreddit. I've made a lot of explanation responses, a front page post about why players are confused about RR, and spoke very briefly with Riot EvrMoar. I'll make sure to add this to the responses I have so hopefully people can have some trust by seeing an actual article instead of my ramblings.
Thank you for all that you do, I see you in many posts linking responses and offering information. I know I told you it directly, but I really appreciate all your engagement with the community!
You would assume a smurfs mmr increases quickly because they win most of their games. But what if its not true?
This is a team game, if your team doesn't perform you can't solo carry every match on your own. Im p3 with a smurf in bronze. I play with my bronze friends. I legitimately try to win all my games but my friends aren't really that good so we only win like 50% of our matches. So my smurf is now hardstuck bronze and im gaining +17 per win and -26 per loss.
I will say, even if players smurf they don't win every game. That being said, because we have performance based MMR, which is more effective in lower ranks, you can lose a match and still increase in MMR. Especially a player that is just constantly winning duels against players.
The system looks at the MMR of everyone in the match, along with ability usage, etc. When you win a duel it looks at who was suppose to win that duel, based off MMR, as well as how ability usage may have helped. Smurfs, very quickly, are pushed up in MMR.
Unfortunately it's hard to detect intentional losing, vs having a bad game, if a smurf tries to purposefully maintain a low rank. We are getting better, and lots of it comes from help from the community by reporting players that talk about, or seem like, they are intentionally throwing.
What's interesting, in shooters one player can have a huge impact on a team. Because it's not like an MMO, or Moba, where sometimes gear and number of players can just become too oppressive. So it's actually harder to maintain a low ranking smurf, purely because we can detect them better because they usually have bigger impacts in matches then normal players. Which means their performance MMR picks up on it, and shuffles them up faster.
But we still need to get better, and of course are working on it :)
I'm talking about bronze smurfs- I don't think they're smurfing to beat up on Iron/bronze/silver, but they are still above that skill level. And they're carrying the friends they are playing with. So in that party, you now have MMR thinking the carried player is better and so they get more RR, and you have the people that are losing, since they lost to bronze with less matches they lose more RR.
And once that smurf gets to high, they just roll another account because it's just too easy to make another competitive account.
I think the biggest problem is that we don't know what MMR is looking for us to do.
If I (in Iron) lose a match as the Team MVP, a score over 6,000, positive KDA... and I still lose 14 RR... what is MMR saying I'm doing wrong?
The article is the best example of what is going on.
MMR is a ladder, if you win against opponents you climb and push them down. If you lose, you go down the ladder and your opponents climb up.
Because lower rank has performance, and win/loss MMR, technically if you are performing better and losing you can still increase MMR. For example you could win duels against higher MMR opponents, or use abilities more effectively then most other players at that MMR.
We don't want you to focus on anything except winning your match, to increase rank and MMR. So at the end of the day just playing your best, and trying to win, is how you climb. We purposefully try to make the system hard to exploit, and avoid players trying to focus on one thing to climb, because winning should be the goal.
Also it's hard to carry/boost friends, especially because if they don't win duels and are winning but not actually having good games their performance MMR holds them back. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's probably also a reason we see more complaints about smurfing then boosted players. Getting boosted is a reason why some people say "why am I getting less RR on a win, and more per loss". Some players may have got ahead of their MMR, by win streaking. But some players may have also been boosted by grouping up, and are being pushed to their actual rank.
It's an interesting problem, and when investigating smurfing the numbers people claim on reddit a little overblown. But we can do better, and are working on it.
I have felt in a lot of games like I’m a matchmaking balancing piece for my team where I’m expected to do insanely well to win a game.
I obviously don’t know how big the MMR range can be while matchmaking in plat/gold but I imagine this is caused by my teammates stacking while I only solo queue.
Is there any way to mitigate this feeling? 10/15 games I have a top 2 acs and high first bloods on my team as a support character and it’s not like I die early in the round either.
I’m not asking because I “deserve” any rating. I’m just having a lot less fun since the new rating changes because it feels like I need to have skill three tiers ahead to win a game.
We actually have not changed the way you match make, or how MMR is calculated since implementing the new system. So it's just the perception of your matches, maybe the ranked system, that's making you think the match quality has changed.
The match maker has actually gotten better at making fair matches, due to reduction of 5/4/3 stacking at diamond+, as well as not soft resetting between acts so we don't see as chaotic movement in ranks during the season.
You also shouldn't be getting placed as the only solo, next to a four stack, very often. It does happen, but four stacks are not as common as other group sizes, so you should encounter them less on average.
you can lose a match and still increase in MMR. Especially a player that is just constantly winning duels against players.
How? How did I lose 14 RR in the bottom match? What about my MMR said I deserved to be deranked from that one, and the next match that I performed even better.. and won... I didn't make up the difference... and so I had to win two games to make up for a single loss in which I feel I performed well in...
https://i.imgur.com/1KCMjHw.jpg
I think one thing is the wild swings... if I'm going +17 and -19 is that converged?
The article answers this, yes it looks like you are converged. You seem to be winning and losing matches evenly, so you are at the rank you belong. If we were to give you a bonus for match mvp, that means we would also have to penalize you more points when you under perform. Again, winning is the goal of the system not kills or match MVP.
Getting boosted is a reason why some people say "why am I getting less RR on a win, and more per loss". Some players may have got ahead of their MMR, by win streaking. But some players may have also been boosted by grouping up, and are being pushed to their actual rank.
Is MMR based on individual performance or team effects? If my team has 2 AFKs and we lose, is there an adjustment to MMR because of that? Does it still expect me to perform as if it were 5v5?
Do you lose more MMR if your team surrenders? Do you gain more MMR by kills or plants?
The thing is the MMR being hidden is that we don't know what the "Judges" (MMR) is looking to score us on... we only know the result.
You're focusing too much on a single match occurrence. If you belong at a higher rank, and win matches, you climb. Some matches will be out of your control, but you are the constant factor in your games.
Wouldn’t the greater range of rank (Plat3-Gold1) cause also cause a bigger MMR range within matches?
If you say that matchmaking here is the same I’ll take your word for it and accept it’s just my perspective. But I do feel the most unbalanced games are when there’s a stack on my team (which usually feels like there’s a stack on theirs as well)
Match maker doesn't look at rank when forming matches just MMR, but your ranked rating gains are effected by your MMR. So MMR is like the bar you are testing at, and your ranked rating gains are pushing you to that bar.
The match maker does try to put 4 stacks against eachother, so you will sometimes get filled. But there are way less 4 stacks then potential solo players to fill that slot, so you shouldn't run into them a ton.
