Original Post — Direct link

It may have already been said but I'm kinda getting tired of it especially in wild rift due to the low champ pool. To start the topic off I will point out the biggest flaw in champ design.

Champs that have safe dashes vs champs that don't

I don't mean every champs that have dashes. I meant champs like riven who has almost non existent cd on her dashes, yasuo who can dash infinitely and zed. Atleast camille or jarvan has to commit to their dashes(except they kinda don't which I will discuss later). Playing ashe, asol or even darius is painful against champs with infinity dash. Sure you can stay in the backline and flash out when they engage on you but thats a summoner spell on cd + you got mispositioned in a teamfight. To top it off they might not even need to flash to get out after they've made you use yours. Isn't the point of dashes to reposition yourself to an advantage and if you messed it up you are badly mispositioned? Then why the hell does the dashes of riven have 2 second cds and a barrier.

How do riot solves this problem? By giving the champs without safe dashes a f*ckton of scaling and stats.

its not even a half bad solution but suddenly this champs become meta and then they get nerfed the next patched and become a mediocre or f tier picks. ( Example of that is Jhin and Mf who was a monster in S1 and is now mediocre or I might even say a troll pick) To top it off champs that don't have safe dashes get buffed to keep up with the infinity dash champs. Jarvan who has to dash in front of 5 enemies is usually gonna get bursted down right? Well for some reason he is tankier than an alistar with ult and stone plate on due to his overwhelming stats and how fast he can raze the jungle for items even when on tank build. Camille also can do that but as I said before became meta and got nerfed. So now you can't even consider them unsafe dashes when they can just soak all the 5 damage of the opposing team and deal just as much damage.

So how should riot solve this problem? Long Cooldowns

But guess what. Almost every item in League has a cd reduction on it. Need a crit item with cd, there's 2. An ap item with cd? An armor item with cd? An ap armor item with cd? A cd item with mana and a ton of ap + ultimate cd? Its a joke to be honest when they remove the cap on cd reduction and considered it a fix.

Sorry for the rant, foul language and bad english. I'm just letting of some steam.

Tl:dr They need to nerf Dashes and Cooldown reduction

External link →
over 2 years ago - /u/R0gueFool - Direct link

Originally posted by Nakamura_Aki

There really is no perfectly balanced game, but atleast in some games most of the champs are viable even in the highest of ranks. I'm just kinda tired of seeing irelia riven yasuo zed tbh. Can't play asol, nasus or garen anymore without having to worry about those four

But do you think these champions are more popular because players enjoy them?

Let's say every champions was perfectly balanced at all elos (in this case I'll define perfectly balanced as having an equal chance of winning in their intended 1-2 positions. IE a 50% winrate). Do you think people have preferred playstyles, or champions that are more appealing to a wider audience?

If yes then those popular champions would show up more frequently than the, equally balanced, but less popular champions.

Then when players don't see the less popular champions as often they assume they are weak. Thus these champion's pickrates go down further. This won't hit 0, every champion has players that enjoy them, but it is a cycle. We see this with many unpopular champions, even with they are objectively strong.

over 2 years ago - /u/R0gueFool - Direct link

Originally posted by Nakamura_Aki

Yes I see your point, and I am one of those who play less popular champions and I don't see them as weak rather outdated and unable to keepup with the more modern champ design. Why play sona when there's seraphine who can do most of the same thing but better. Thus leading to them getting insane scaling or stats per level buff in order to compensate and when they become viable they get higher pick rates win rates then get nerfed back to C tier.

P.s Im not trying to argue, this is rather a long rant and thank you for taking the time to notice this post. If this reply sounds a bit offensive then I am sorry in advance because I do not know how to word properly since english is not my first language

No worries at all, I'm always happy to see engaging discussions on here.

What do you mean by "keep up"? When I read this I assume you mean they struggle to stay relevant in the game when other champions are added. That is a concern when we create new champions for sure. We don't want to release a champion who is just a better version of another (in multiple aspects, but here I'll focus on power, theme, and role/identity).

There will always be some overlaps, and those can be good, think of the champions with very little overlap (Teemo, Singed, Asol) and you see some of the most misunderstood and least popular champions. What we want to avoid is too much overlap.

In the case of Sona and Seraphine, there is a lot of overlap at a surface level. But Seraphine is primary a mid laner, requiring levels and exp to do her job. While Sona brings powerful (and hard to appreciate auras and team buffs. Their Ultimates and Ws (2s) are similar for sure, but even with that in mind Sona's R's (4) speed is basically undodgeable, and her W provides a powerful damage reduction (something that off the top of my head I can't think of anywhere else in the game). Or Sona's Q (1) and E (3) giving constant teamwide stats, while Seraphine is much more of a utility mage who still needs deal damage herself.

Unrelated but it was brought up, stats per level is typically something we do when a champion is weak in mid-low elo play. These games typically go longer so they are a good lever for buffing them there without also buffing them in high level play.

over 2 years ago - /u/R0gueFool - Direct link

Originally posted by Nakamura_Aki

Yes its kind of hard for some champs to keep up with others with the new kits. Right now I main Riven after losing to her everytime I face her as Darius or even Camille when I want to try to survive the lane. Its kind of a relief actually to play a champ that has free movement especially when I hit 50 cdr where I can dash around the map. My main arguement about Sona is how well she does in lol pc because of late game while in wildrift its hard to reach that point of powerspike due to the fast paced gameplay and how most supports can shut her down in lane. I only compared it to Seraphine because she feels like what Sona should be in wildrift due to its fast paced nature. I think applying Sona's passive on her ult would make her viable vs most other enchanter who can provide a ton of utility than what Sona right now can offer or some kind of rework. Rammus got a dash on his ult and he is a good pick in master-chall tier, I would argue one of the best jungles because of his ganks.

You are right that Rammus is a powerful and under appreciated pick by most players. However you are wrong in saying the Sona isn't viable, even when directly compared to Seraphine (using the definition we stated earlier) Sona is a fine, and actually a stronger pick than Seraphine. Sona is THE late game support and pays for that with weaknesses in the early game.

Even talking about newer vs older champion kits, both Riven and Darius are rather old kits (from PCs release dates), but even then Darius is the newer kit.

It is understandable that you are saying dashes can be frustrating but Sona is actually rather uneffected by them. Her abilities are targeted, and her ultimate is very quick with a large AoE.

over 2 years ago - /u/R0gueFool - Direct link

Originally posted by Nakamura_Aki

To add to the discussion, I think that even with sona hitting his powerspike in the late game there would aready be anti heals and mercury boots to counter her. I'd argue Seraphine is the better pick in how she is relevant all parts of the game in Wild rift. LoL pc is a different story in which Sona definitely outdo Seraphine due to her late game scaling.

I guess I should have spaced the darius vs riven part, I meant to say that I am stating that older champs have a hard tine to keep up with new champs then the darius vs riven part. ( bad english and using reddit in mobile sorry)

I think the best part of Sona is her ult which is huge compared to pc. The worst part of is it gets reduced to oblivion by mercury boots and the rhino rune. If I want a heal, movement speed champ with a great initiation ult I would pick Nami who also scales very well late game due to her scaling.

Thanks for taking time to discuss with the community, I really didn't expect a feedback and an interesting discussion

That's what I am saying though, Sona isn't a a flat out worse support. There are, and should be, situations where one is better than the other. But if you line them up side by side Sona is winning more games. Now it might be fair to say that Seraphine is better early game, and that you value the early game more than the late game. However those kind of options/differences are important for champions to have for them to be different. If I as a player/team want to have a stronger late game, at the cost of my early game, that option exists. And doing anything that puts power into Sona's early game means we need to pull it from her late game. This makes these characters more similar and dulls the strategic choice between them.

When it comes to initiation I don't think either of these champions is great, both can do it in a pinch for sure. But both are better at following up an initiation. Though I'd argue Seraphine is better at following up here, while Sonas is better if you need to protect from divers.

Even when saying older champions have a hard time keeping up with newer ones I don't think I can agree. The first thing I notice when watching pro games for lolPC is the number of older champions I see in a game. This could be different definitions of "old" (I started playing PC very early on). But champions like Orianna, TF, J4, Darius, Ahri, Janna, MF, and Varus to name a few, all pop up rather often for how old they are. And most of those are rather immobile to boot.

You are right that we don't want to power creep old champions with new ones, and this is something we try to be aware of when developing them. This isn't to say that feeling this way about new champions isn't valid. Honestly how players feel can be more important than other data points. And letting us hear that is a great way to help us make the game better.

I hear you on the Reddit mobile, I've had to correct a few things that auto correct thinks it's fixing. =p