Kassadin, Samira and Sion will be champions #87-89. So the next one will be the #90! So glad we are getting closer to 100! The game now feels less repetitive and more varied. This game is about to hit its peak somewhere between 120-160 champions! I started to play since release day and currently I'm enjoying it more than ever.
I'm hoping for Rumble, Talon, Viktor and Hecarim to come soon 🥺
External link →Definitely a jungler.
Last 5 have us 2 supp and 1 in each lane, time for a jungler
Poor Sion, Ekko, Nautilus, and Shen.
maybe he meant to say viable jungler :)
Ah in that case Ekko, Nautilus, and Shen, assuming by viable we mean junglers who are performing fine. But maybe by viable, we want to ignore those that are not particularly popular.
i genuinely believe that the issue with jungle champion pool is that off meta picks are just so shit or feel shit to play. im a huge fan of diana jungle but her clear is such a turn off. same with fizz jungle that used to be somewhat viable, nerfs the champion and ever since the nerfs his jungle clear have been abysmal.
people dont realize that the jungle champion pool has been HIT so many times in the past few nerfs that so many of them feel very unsatisfying to play or are just flat out unviable.
off the top of my head, camille, fizz, rengar, mundo, etc. jungle is by far the best role to climb but it wouldnt hurt to buff a few junglers to have more variety in the jungle.
and also, nautalis and shen in the jungle is super rare i barely see them at all.
So it really depends on what you mean by viable. When I talk about viability I mean that they have a reasonable chance of performing well in that role (ie if you pick them you have a fair chance of winning the game).
I point this out because popularity is not at all the same as viability (unless we have different definitions for viability). Popular champions tend to be flashy, get kills themselves, or have a fair bit of mobility. But that doesn't mean that others are non-viable. This is why champions like Ezreal, Kai'sa, Katarina, and Master Yi, are all popular champions regardless of their power. Nautilus and Shen don't really have any of those aspects (most players don't enjoy playing tanks), so ya you are going to see fewer of them, but that doesn't mean they don't perform well, just that players prefer other champions.
Being unsatisfying is a different problem, that isn't always related to a champion's power (though that can obviously play a role). However if the way to solve this satisfaction problem is to buff a champion, who is already doing fine, than we need to nerf them in other areas.
Diana and Fizz are great examples here, both are performing fine (hell I just played several Diana jungle games today), and while their first clear is a bit slow their kill power makes up for that, and you can carry games with either champion. In Fizz's case, when we buffed him for the jungle we overdid it by a LOT so players got used to his crazy OP state, and when we nerfed him to a reasonable place many players viewed that as weak despite him now being in a healthy place.
The jungle role is the best way to climb, a decent jungle has a very large impact on the outcome of the game, more than any other role, and more than we would like. This is why we have targeted nerfs at the role but it is still by far the best if you are looking to climb.
Well maybe Ekko, Nautilus, and Shen are fine as a jungler, but they are far more competent in lane (mid, supp, and top respectively). Of course you are Rioter and I assume holds the data for champions that performs fine in jungle, but I "feel" they are far from viable jungle. Take this as a feedback (or just grain of salt) from a jungler in WR for 4000+ games and plays as a jungler in other MOBAs as well. Maybe we can agree to disagree our differences by what "viable" means :)
And that is totally fair, I am 100% ok with us disagreeing on how something feels (it much better than everyone agreeing that it is solved). And depending on the champion you are right they might be better in a lane (I wouldn't say far more, but maybe slightly, but that isn't the focus).
I think that the issue here is that many players prefer playing as the 1v9 flashy solo carry champion, and that is totally fine, we have champions for those players, but Nautilus and Shen aren't that. They still have a good impact but they essentially share some of their carry potential, that comes with the jungle role, with your allies, and that isn't something that most people enjoy doing.
I do think there are things we could do, and have started doing, to raise the satisfaction for non-carry champions. But that is a tricky problem and takes time, reducing the impact of early scuttle crab is an example of this. Now weak duelists aren't automatically behind early-game powerhouses simply because they can't fight for a crab. It isn't perfect, and I don't expect it ever will be, but I do hope we can improve the situation and get a variety of jungler archetypes that feel more viable.
These champs are much better in their natural role. And what’s the discussion on releasing champs by their role or archetype?
Being slightly better in another position doesn't mean they are bad in another. We want to make sure players in each position have champions to look forward to, and that we are serving a variety of archetypes. That doesn't mean everyone's favorite champion is releasing next, popularity is only one thing we look at when adding champions, and you aren't going to see us plan a release schedule like Baron>Jungle>Mid>Dragon>Support, but we do take positions, roles, and archetypes into account when choosing champions.
Now that we are on this topic what do you think of a Zed jungle buff?
I'm not sure how he is doing now, nor do I know the rest of the team's thoughts. Several months back LoLPC gave certain champions some jungle-focused buffs with the thought that it would help Jungle popularity I don't know much about its impact but my perception is that it helped these champion's popularity in those roles it didn't do much for the popularity of the role itself if that makes sense. That doesn't mean that we couldn't do it, but it isn't something we have spent much time discussing.
I do think there are things we could do, and have started doing, to raise the satisfaction for non-carry champions. But that is a tricky problem and takes time, reducing the impact of early scuttle crab is an example of this. Now weak duelists aren't automatically behind early-game powerhouses simply because they can't fight for a crab. It isn't perfect, and I don't expect it ever will be, but I do hope we can improve the situation and get a variety of jungler archetypes that feel more viable.
I'm actually pretty happy with the approach of devs took regarding to jungle gameplay, else I wouldn't play 4000+ games as a jungler haha. Maybe I'm just jealous because of the amount of top lane champions that get released patch after patch lol. Anyway, you guys are doing great, keep up the good work 👍
<3 Thanks for the kind words. When Sion is released let me know what you think about him as a jungler. I expect he should be good as both a Jungle and Baron laner.
It’s just that when you mention these champs, they’re primarily thought of to be baron, mid, support, and flex role respectively. So alternatively if Nunu as a jungler is released it doesn’t move the needle for mid or support champs. Or Brand then say “there you go ADCs, play him with Senna,” and I mean that with the utmost respect. And I’m pretty sure Nunu is the last true jungler that has been added. Like sure I’m having fun as Morgana jungle who’s arguably a better jungle flex than any of others you mentioned as far as what is ideal for a jungler: sustain, mobility, clear speed, etc., but my idea was that we’re looking for a true jungler.
And with releasing by role and/or archetype, tank, mage, assassin for example, I think you’re able to expand the meta around that role and/or archetype’s “pick meta”. This could in theory keep players of a role and/or archetype tuned in for their turn in the rotation and fills holes while again expanding pick pool and could help the teams focus on a type of champion and can more finely filter the test results for these roles.
Like it’s ADC patch? Well let’s add two or three more ADC and see what the other ADCs are lacking to keep everyone about on an even keel. Then next round for ADC you can fill in the holes that you missed or ideas that were scrapped last.
Just my thought process. Try to let a brother know what you think.
ok so if you are talking about someone who only, or whose primary role is the jungle then you are right it has been a while (worth us considering). But that doesn't mean we haven't had any junglers, in fact every major patch for a while has had at least one who can jungle.
I'm not sure I understand by "And with releasing by role and/or archetype, tank, mage, assassin for example, I think you’re able to expand the meta around that role and/or archetype’s “pick meta”."
While we like the idea of themed patches matching all the champions to a single role has its drawbacks. One big one would be how long players would need to wait between releases, if we had 5-6 role/position-focused patches that's somewhere around 10-12 months before the next set comes around. And that doesn't take into account things like "X champion isn't Y role", like what spurred this discussion.
We also have events that can involve a region, theme, or aesthetic that wouldn't work if we released 3 marksmen but could work with champions from the same region (an example here was Piltover and Zaun that came with Jayce, Caitlynn, and Dr. Mundo). Champions are also planned FAR in advance whereas game systems-level changes, such as items or runes, take less time. They still require a bit of planning/time but not nearly to the same degree as champions or skins. So it is easier for us to adapt to the game's current landscape when planning these releases.
With all that said there is a LOT that goes into planning when champions are released, and no single team gets to decide who is, or when they are coming.
I'll admit, I wasn't considering Ekko or Shen in the last 5 (I was thinking of Nautilus, Pyke and the 3 just announced) because they were in the game when I started playing, not was I aware Sion was built to be jungle viable, don't think the trailer mentions it.
Also hard to find a place for Nautilus when my 2 favorite junglers are already tanks, so maybe I was just selfishly ignoring him.
I never thought this comment would get so much traction, certainly not from an actual Rioter. Thanks for a great game and, apparently, actually listening to the community even with how much we complain about you.
I'm always happy to chat, and I often check out threads like this. Shen is an interesting one because we didn't originally list him as a jungler, but added him after seeing his performance.
Pick meta is something I would theorize to be the trends in pick and ban rates. Like does a champ get picked every three games or 7 games or so. I feel like three new jg in a patch would be able to help it’s pick meta if those three happen to be a mix of Sejuani, Lillia, and Udyr. That could satisfy your tank jg players, your ranged jg players, and your fighter jg players for example. Then next go round your get an assassin, supportive, or a random other type and fill a hole.
As far as the time I gotta say I don’t mind waiting (we have to wait anyways) and I feel like others wouldn’t mind either. Of course some would be upset they’re later along the line but where it could work is if you compared the roles roster and choose that way.
As far as the aesthetics from your patches I feel like the events could be introduced later on since we have a pretty good demographic as far as champion representation from each of the zones (I’m not too familiar with the zones I just play league lol).
I also have been hard considering going into game design myself.
You might not mind waiting but I see a new thread every few days saying "when is X coming to Wild Rift" now imagine knowing it doesn't even have a chance of showing up for a year, then how it feels if the champion you were wishing for isn't even listed.
Your right there are things we could do to mitigate that, but I don't think that is a better (and imo worse) experience. As for a patch with 3 junglers you are right I expect that when that patch hits the jungle role would see a spike in popularity, but then there is the better part of the year where it sinks back down to normal pickrates.
I wish you the best of luck in going into game design it is tricky for sure, and more work than anyone thinks, but I do love it. The best advice I can give for starting out is to try your hand at it, try gaming a game and iterate on it, this could be in Unity, Unreal, Game maker, Godot, or even tabletop. There are a lot of resources online, but I suggest checking out the Gamemaker's toolkit YouTube channel. Mark Brown has a great recent series on making a magnet based platformer.
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