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I know it's a very controversial thing since it's a rune that offers bonuses without any huge downsides. Basically, free stats for doing nothing.
However, as it stands it is far to weak when compared to things like adaptive carapace which gives you almost the same amounts of bonuses that conditioning would that would give at roughly 8mins into the game (mid game), at the beginning of said game.

So basically, there's no point on running it. Furthermore tanks are so so weak right now in the game that I think buffing this rune would maybe make them a bit more relevant.

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almost 3 years ago - /u/R0gueFool - Direct link

I'm curious to know why you feel that Conditioning is a weak rune? Its slow stacking nature is definitely a bit harder to feel than other runes that have a clear on/off state. This would explain it feeling a bit weaker than other defensive runes.

Because this rune is something that all champions have access to it actually wouldn't help tanks more than other classes. It's actually a bit worse for tanks, vs other classes. This is because they end up buying extra Armor/MR so the bonus you gain from Conditioning ends up not being worth as much for tanks, because Armor and MR values have diminishing returns, when compared to other classes who don't purchase as much.

almost 3 years ago - /u/R0gueFool - Direct link

Originally posted by Floriver

I feel that conditioning is a weak rune because WR relies on snowballing so much.

Giving up on immediate buffs like adaptive carapace, bone plating, or loyalty for 5 minutes of nothing makes your early game that much weaker.

This isn't a big deal in the mid lane or jungle, but it seems important for baron and dragon lane since it's a game of attrition.

I've had so many fights where I've won with a sliver of health, and, had I taken conditioning instead, I would have lost.

And because of how short the games are, you don't stack up that much armor/MR, making the end payoff not that rewarding.

And as mentioned, it's better for squishies since armor/MR has diminishing returns, but squishies can't afford to not have bone plating or adaptive carapace in the first 5 minutes.

I use conditioning only for ARAM or for bruisers like Galio.

Ok, so your issue with the rune is that you feel that the early game is too valuable to risk on a rune focused on the late game. That suggests an issue with the idea of having a late-game defensive rune.

I think that is a fair issue to have but we already have other early game runes and I don't think we would want to change this just to add another.

Though I don't agree that squishy champions need to take Bone Plating or Adaptive Carapace I think it really depends on the match-up. Bone Plating is great against burst or assassins, but if you are not worried about that it isn't worth taking. Whereas Adaptive Carapace is better if you can stay at low health for longer, something squishy champions tend to struggle with. Though it is a fine general defensive rune.

It's also worth noting that it's only the first 5 minutes of the game, generally, you aren't going to be dealing with a lot of burst damage or be at low health this early on.

almost 3 years ago - /u/R0gueFool - Direct link

Originally posted by surlytempo

For me, I think the stacking nature of runes seems out of place (and out of pace) with our current condensed 5s snowball format. 5m is a long time in a game. I get the principle behind say Gathering Storm vs Brutal and Conditioning vs Bone Plating or Carpace, but, with the stacking runes, the amount of time needed to generate stacks just feels both too long and poorly paced. Maybe give stacks equal to the amount you already have prescribed, but in smaller amounts at shorter intervals. Idk, I'm just not a fan of the current rune system in general. I would personally like to see runes that allow more heroes to engage in more build diversity, and on-hit runes that provide more presence to a range of different champs in the game. Some classes could benefit more from others in terms of specific rune choices, ranged vs melee, a distinction you already make. The current meta just feels so stale tbh :/ and I feel like runes could be a great opportunity to not only promote deeper game knowledge but force players to explore different builds that have more prominent interactions with different runes. Maybe add an Aura system if you want to do something more novel than PC. Auras that enhance various team attributes/stats etc. Auras I think make much more sense as a time delayed stacked passive. Just my two cents. Cheers <3

It's possible that it isn't the best rune if you are constantly trying to teamfight, but the meta can change and I wouldn't want to us to get in a habit of adjusting the philosophy of a rune (in this case, late-game scaling) to better fit a different meta.

Conditioning isn't the most popular defensive rune, though these runes have a better spread than other tiers. But aside from a lower pick rate, it's actually performing just fine.

almost 3 years ago - /u/R0gueFool - Direct link

Originally posted by Floriver

It's definitely not a terrible rune. It has its uses, even if those uses are slightly more niche.

... But new runes would be nice ;)

...Looking into it a bit now I'd argue that it actually could be a bit more niche, while it isn't the most popular rune it is on the stronger side. I'd say this is an issue of satisfaction. Runes like Gathering Storm show you their scaling, and others are more feelable. But the issue here is that once you have this effect you just gain a small, unnoticeable, amount every 2 minutes. I'd bet it would see more play if we showed the values at X minutes (like you see on Gathering Storm) in the tooltip.

...It would also see a lot more play if we put it into more recommended builds. Player's don't deviate from that as much as I would have expected.

almost 3 years ago - /u/R0gueFool - Direct link

Originally posted by surlytempo

But we are in a team fight meta are we not? It's not that I feel the philosophy of runes has to be changed every time the meta changes, but to create a rune system that allows itself to evolve with the meta through either combined passives, more item/combined build synergies. If we look at runes like Brutal or Gathering Storm, they are not even equal to the classes they apply to. For example, different AP champs have different AP ratios and so there doesn't seem to be an even distribution of power across champions within even the same damage category who are intended to benefit from those rune selections.

You say the meta can be changed, but, where or how has that meta really changed? And how much of the meta can be changed given you and other developers reluctance to break with those things you deem are fine? Is "fine" really the bar you want to set for what you are trying to market and promote as one of the best MOBAs out there? I don't mean to be rude, but with the amount of experience you guys have on your team, I think you can do better than fine. Point in case. WR is still using the same meta lane configuration that is (what 6 or 7 years old?) People saw a few former VG players debut the double mid meta, and league players be like OMG. WOW!!!

VG players like "o that ole bag of trix?"

I guess coming from VG, when I hear of a "changing meta," I imagine anything ranging from substantial differences across lane/role distributions to counter building/active itemization as all part of the meta framework and configuration. But it feels to me, as a development philosophy, Riot in general tries to dictate the meta as opposed to letting it evolve and issue balancing adjustments along the way. I feel this is most evident in the way you approached curbing funneling strats (which I admit were toxic, but definitely better ways to go about correcting it imo.) And in the fact that the current lane meta configuration is at least 5 years old and based on the current state of things, doesn't seem to be going anywhere any time soon.

You're right that different champions have different ratios and thus things that give AP, in this case, Brutal and Gathering Storm, values changes for each champion but that is going to be the case with any game where you have different characters. There isn't a lot of design space when everything is equally valuable to everyone.

I'm sorry that I used the word "fine" what I was saying is that the rune itself is not weak (it actually might be a tad strong for its slot), the problem is that people undervalue it because it isn't as feelable/noticeable as other runes. That is a problem for sure, but when talking in terms of "balance" it isn't a problem here. As for the meta changing, it does change different regions and elos within those regions all tend to have a different meta. We see this in LolPC all the time, and Worlds is often where these metas clash.

You mentioned that you believe funnel strategies are toxic and should be dealt with maybe we didn't deal with it the way you would like. But we stepped in to respond to both it and early lane swapping because these were uninteractive playstyles that plain and simply stifled other metas and clearly not fun.

Though I think this is a different discussion than player perception around the Conditioning rune.

almost 3 years ago - /u/R0gueFool - Direct link

Originally posted by surlytempo

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond. Really appreciate the effort on your part. I wanted to take some time to think on it and do some active reflecting on my part by experimenting with rune loadouts across a range of different heroes.

I think in general my disappointment with the rune system isn't so much any one rune itself, although there are runes I favor less and those I wouldn't run ever I think. I think for me, the issue is about stat distributions across AD/AP scalings along with runes appearing more beneficial for melee classes (higher damage bonuses (understandable given range limitations), but also those runes that not only preserve their damage potential but heavily mitigate ranged champs ability to lock them down. Consider that for an AP caster, the trade off between choosing between Hunter Titan and Bone Plating is a much bigger ask as an early game rune choice for an AP caster with low base stats and a required stacking element. Whereas for melees going into a CC comp, they can choose say Hunter Titan without the risk of not having rune bone plating for early game burst heavy trades. They have enough survivability to get through these phases without seemingly any of the disadvantages ranged casters often have to face. With respect to the funneling meta, I fully respected Riot's development team for taking a proactive response in dealing with what I thougt was and still do think is an abusive and spiritless strat. I think any differences I might have about efficacious ways to deal with those strats was really more about not inadvertently nerfing other viable strats as a result of a intended changes to curb one strat. But yeah, I think you were spot on about this being more a discussion about player side perception, are my feelings misplaced about the rune system? Is there a better way I could be looking at this?

I don't think your feelings are misplaced, and please don't take what I was saying to mean that they ever were. A player's feelings are actually the most valuable feedback you can give us. This is a bit off-topic but hold with me for a moment.

We often see players generalize their feelings as "All/Majority/Most Players feelings X", but actually tends to work against the person's argument when really the most valuable thing for us as developers is what you the person taking the time to post feel. Don't make an argument on other players behalf, because you are going to be the best person to know how you feel about something.

There are some really great posts on this blog about this, the most valuable ways to give devs feedback, I read this daily and if you are interested in game dev I highly recommend them. So sharing how you feel about a change or feature is super valuable, even if it isn't the "actually X is very strong" we want the strong things to feel strong perceptions is often as/more valuable than the reality.

https://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/149466049419/80-20-5
https://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/157238832062/i-remember-your-52080-rule-and-it-was-an-awesome

Now to your actual question. Not every rune is going to appeal to every champion. Our hope is that each champion/class has 2-3 options that they can feel good about, looking at our data it does seem that this is largely the case, some better than others (the Domination rune slot is very...pick rate dominated by Brutal) whereas the Resolve slot is in a rather balanced state in terms of power and pick rate. Where as the Inspiration rune slot is somewhere in the middle, no single dominant rune, but people really overvalue Sweet Tooth given its power.

This is where feeling comes in, how something feels can often overshadow somethings actual power. A great example here is Grave's W (Smokescreen), for Graves this actually doesn't feel that great to hit because you don't really see the impact to your opponent. But as the opponent getting hit by Smokescreen can feel impactful (you lose all vision).

Minor runes are a big deal here, as they aren't intended to have a massive impact on your game, they do provide some bonus, but it shouldn't swing a game their own. This is why runes don't have visual effects (with the exceptions of Bone Plating). With these goals it kind of pushes runes to have a lot of invisible power.

You are right that there are situations where we give a larger bonus to melee champions over ranged ones, (Second Wind comes to mind here). Ideally we avoid this but it really comes down to the situation we are in. In Second Wind's case the goal of the rune is to survive poke/harassment in lane. Ranged champions have an easier time avoid poke, and are just generally safer than melee ones. Because of this we didn't want to give them the same tools as a melee champion, who doesn't have the same safety.

I'm not sure I follow what you are saying about AD/AP champions scaling with these runes. If you could explain that a bit more, that would be helpful.

Runes are intended as a way for you to customize your champion outside of the item system. Runes also tend to be more focused on the early game, where items take over more in the mid-late game. Though we do want some scaling rune options for players to opt into.