[2022] Why is Lee Sin still broken?

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For God's sake, why haven't they nerfed that goddamn champion yet? Nearly all champions' base attack damage or abilities have been nerfed. Shyvana hasn't been in the game for millennia and isn't even played in Emerald-Diamond elo. It's ridiculous and frustrating that they haven't touched Lee Sin for a year. Why does a champion with such strong mechanics and easy gank potential still have such high base stats? Only the cooldown of the W skill has been increased, which has no effect. He still has extremely high damage. Early game red buff, golems and boom 'enemy double kill' in bot lane. Sett and Kayle are likewise screwed right now with nerfs. I think champions like Lee Sin who have high mechanics and cause the game to end in the 2nd minute by good players should be nerfed. Lee Sin can get a kill by hitting his first ability in the early game. This is so stupid.

You ban the counterpick of your champ
Opponent picks Lee Sin
You see the Muay Thai skin on the loading screen
Game starts, red buff>golems>'enemy double kill!'
The game is officially lost in the second minute

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about 2 years ago - /u/R0gueFool - Direct link

Originally posted by KevHemin

I'm going to tell you why, statistics.

They only nerf or buff based on statistics(and maybe competitive). The truth is that Lee Sin has a < 50% win rate, because lot of people picks it but just a few knows how to play with it, the ones who knows how to play with it make it a super broken champion, while the guys who doesn't know how to play it, put the statistics in his favor in order to not be nerfed.

The same applies with other champions like Irelia, Akali, Fiora, Camille, Yasuo, etc. (I am not saying they are broken) just they got low win rate besides a guy who knows how to play them could be having very high win rate with them.

This is somewhat true, we do take player perception into account when deciding changes. But neither player perception or a champion's statistics are the only thing taken into account.

And even with pure statistics amongst high-skilled, frequent Lee Sin players he does not have a high winrate.

He can be frustrating to play against for sure, and there are several champions that we can think of as highly frustrating that are statistically weak. Akali and Lee Sin are the two that most come to mind.

In order for this conversation to move forward it really needs to change from "these champions are OP and need nerfs" (because every objective source says otherwise), and needs to be reframed as "I find X champion is frustrating to play against, I feel like ...".

With this mind set we understand that his 2's untargeted dash is a common point of frustration, but that is highly unlikely to change because of the constraints of the game's controls. Another common frustration point has been around his early game dueling power (though this is an intended strength of the champion). This is why his recent nerfs have been focused around these two areas.

It is a tricky spot to balance around for sure, and we are looking for ways to bring down his frustration, but it is difficult to find the right solution that also doesn't make things worse in other areas.

about 2 years ago - /u/R0gueFool - Direct link

Originally posted by Verbosu

Nice explanation, I feel frustated too when playing againts Lee. But one question, Graves has been nerfed a lot on the previous patch, does highly frustrating and statistivally weak also apply to Graves too? I always picking Graves whenever the enemy jungler picks Lee, but since Graves literally does 0 damage in the early game due to recent nerf, I don't see the motivation to pick Graves anymore.

I don't believe that Graves falls into this high frustration vs pool. I haven't seen Graves' recent data, but before the nerfs he was very strong, I believe he is now in a more balanced state.

about 2 years ago - /u/R0gueFool - Direct link

Originally posted by nickersb24

Nice, but why not make his 2nd ability has to target allies like in SR? The free dash is a bit much imo

This is what I was touching on, when I mentioned the controls. Selecting a single target in Wild Rift isn't an ideal experience, and Lee Sin expects to be able to "Insec" where he dashes behind a target to kick them back into his team.

In LoLPC he needs to target a ward to do this, but in Wild Rift quickly placing a ward in the right spot, then targeting it with 2 is a VERY rough input to do. This is why he doesn't need a dash target in Wild Rift, but this leads to the frustration problem we are talking about.

about 2 years ago - /u/R0gueFool - Direct link

Originally posted by Endo_Dizzy

Thank you for taking time for thoughtful input on this topic. It’s very helpful and insightful to hear from someone on the team.

Happy to! You all make me better at doing my job, and it's a really fun part of it.

about 2 years ago - /u/R0gueFool - Direct link

Originally posted by AdPsychological2597

Thank you for this rational response. I see a lot of people posting out of frustration and I totally empathize, but I appreciate your analysis and objectivity. Thanks for making a great game which I have enjoyed for many years. I am playing wild rift a lot right now because I don’t have the ability to sit in front of my computer as I once did. I hope you will pass on to that team my highest compliments! I had been hoping for soooo long that a mobile version of LoL would be made and I tried all of the clones on mobile. The clones always disappointed me. So thank you for creating this opportunity to experience all of the frustrations, achievements and accomplishments! Keep it up!

Thanks! I'm glad you are enjoying the game, and it means a lot to hear you share your love of the game. The team puts everything they can into the game because of how much you all, and us, love it.

As a long time moba player myself, Wild Rift is a bit of a dream come true for me too. And hearing people enjoying it makes everything that much better.

about 2 years ago - /u/R0gueFool - Direct link

Originally posted by nickersb24

Ok thanks - but that ur criteria set to look at the problem based on the insec ability… like I get how iconic that was when it was brought to competitive League - but I’m sure it wasn’t part of the ability’s original design.

Look at Jax as a counter example - where the team was happy to just remove the ability to q to wards (ward hopping).

So by comparison, a fleeing Lee Sin can q to enemy target and dash, then a totally un- targetable dash with w, then flash - no other champ can compare to this level of mobility and is unprecedented in the game - all because the dev team wanted to keep the ability to insec?

I would say he can still insec but needs more prep, like a pre-placed ward or at the least allow it to target enemies as well as allies - but to go the whole hog instead and give him an un-targeted dash to me seems like over kill.

Truly tho, I’d rather see all champs buffed to his level than nerfing him. The difference between the community’s perception and Riot’s interpretation of the data is poignant and should be acknowledged and taken as a guidepost - it represents the thin edge of the wedge, and we can use that point to establish more objective baseline measures. Not sure exactly what this could look like but say buffing every champ to have a comparable ban rate is a rough example. Albeit a poor one.

And can jax please get an in-targeted q to preserve ward-hopping’s mechanic? That’s tongue in cheek. Much appreciate ur responses, thanks :)

Jax's leap doesn't lead to a combo that is iconic for the champion. It is used for an escape or an engage, for an already powerful champion. Where as Lee Sin's is part of a combo, that if not present, would feel like he isn't himself.

You are right, we could make ward hoping the expected patter for Lee Sin to do his combo. I never said it wasn't possible, I said the controls would be bad, and clunky. Some people could do it for sure, but it doesn't mean it would be clean.

If you read my above responses you'll see me saying that Lee Sin isn't OP like many, on this forum, think. It's much more of a frustration problem. So if you are saying we should raise champions so that same frustration then I need to disagree. If you are saying we should bring all champions to his power level then expect nerfs to many champions. We tend to want to keep the champion pool at a relatively stable power level.

Both Lee Sin and Jax can be frustrating in their own ways, but Jax is the only one who can justify nerfs. So if we hope to make headway in this discussion then let's focus on the frustration.

about 2 years ago - /u/R0gueFool - Direct link

Originally posted by Reasonable_Bug_5943

Is katarina frustrating?

She can be for sure. Do you find her frustrating?

about 2 years ago - /u/R0gueFool - Direct link

Originally posted by Reasonable_Bug_5943

I’m a kat main who peaked bronze 1 when I played league on pc. Fast forward years came back cause I love the moba genre and made it to D1 playing katarina mid, Annie mid, and rengar jg on wild rift. But I’d like insider knowledge to what I should look out for playing katarina and what I can expect.

I'm not sure exactly what you are looking for, but off hand I know Iorb is a strong first item for her, and Gunblade is overrated.

about 2 years ago - /u/R0gueFool - Direct link

Originally posted by Reasonable_Bug_5943

Awesome! I’ve never been sure about orb or gun blade. I’ll typically pick orb into tankier matches and gun blades into squishies. Statistically is it smart to build gun blade into squishy matches or orb all the way?

I haven't looked at her data in a while, but Mpen (Morello and IOrb) are always going to be your best items. She is an assassin with good AP ratios, I wouldn't be going tank Kat to get the most out of her.

about 2 years ago - /u/R0gueFool - Direct link

Originally posted by Reasonable_Bug_5943

Suggestive items are that magic resistance 70 ap item and then that defence from ad and ap. Any reason those are suggested? My fault for being so vague

The default I'm seeing does have BVeil but that is still a mage item not a tank item.

As for suggested builds those are general builds for the champion, in general they are fine. But they are not always going to be the most optimal, and even any recommendations can't account for your in game situation.

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[2022] Why is Lee Sin still broken?

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