Original Post — Direct link

Although BToK and TToK are very much linked together, but there are other variables that change the TToK of a weapon. (Bare in mind we are not going to discuss "recoil" and "accuracy" because we are assuming all bullets to hit.)

So those variables currently available in game are:

  • Rate of Fire
  • Muzzle Velocity (Which isn't shared within the game. Check here for all the weapon specifications and comparisons https://sym.gg/ )

DICE only shared the new BToK for those four weapons and did not share any further and detailed information, But has mentioned that not only the BToK system for each and every gun, but their specializations, RoF and their recoil pattern is going to be changed. So how does this affect, or better to be said NOT affect the TToK and makes the shooting more skill based?

In this current gunplay system, the BToK for all of the SMGs (except the newly added TYPE 100 which needs 1 more BToK at every specified range) and ARs/MMGs/LMGs follow the same pattern:

  • 4 BToK 0m to 10m, 5 BToK 10m to 30m , 6 BToK 30m to 50m (this goes on to 8 BToK beyond 75m) for SMGs
  • 4 BToK 0m to 10m, 5 BToK 10m to 50m, 6 BToK from 50m and beyond for ARs/MMGs/LMGs

As you can see, to differentiate the TToK between each weapon in every class, it only comes to our two previously mentioned variables and one of them is not even shared in the game. So this creates metas that alienates other available choices. Because after all the weapon patches that we've got, you are going to handicap yourself if you pick anything other than Thompson, ZK-383 high RoF+muzzle velocity and Suomi for the medic class since they're easy to handle too.

Let's discuss the muzzle velocity a bit.

You will find the most muzzle velocity variations among the SMGs . The lowest ones are 330m/s for the Thompson and Suomi and the highest ones are specialized ZK-383, MP34 and MAB 38 at 560m/s.

The highest muzzle velocity for automatic firing weapons goes to the LMGs/MMGs . Lowest ones come at 740m/s like the KE7 and FG 42, while highest one goes as fast as 880m/s specialized Madsen MG.

And ARs are the buses parked in between. The M1907 SF has a 570m/s muzzle velocity while the specialized Ribeyrolles fires the fastest AR bullets, at 680m/s. The STG and Sturmgewehr 1-5 have the same muzzle veloicy: 620m/s.

As you can see, if we assume every bullet hits, then it's only a matter of how fast and at what fire rate bullets hit the target to differentiate all these automatic firing weapons across three classes. This kills the STENs, the MP40s the Ribeyrolles the LS/26s and the meta shifts towards the STGs, Thompsons and FG 42s. It's simple: Why pick a STEN if you can handle a Thompson at much more higher RoF and land hits? You get a 50 rounds mag too.

So how is the new BToK system is going to KEEP the TToK?

Let's see what the new graph says for the Thompson. You'll need 7 BToK between 15m to 20m right? Since the whole RoF and specialization tree is going to be changed (I have to drag recoil into this too) and potentially even better control of the gun, imagine the base RoF is 900 with the 50 rounds drum mag. 5 BToK from 0m to 10m and 7 BToK from 15m to 20m would still be a fast TToK with 900rpm, but who is going to land all the 7 bullets? Yes, the SKILLED ones. We have the practical example of this new system right now, the TYPE 100 SMG. It is very accurate and has very little recoil, 420m/s muzzle velocity and a 720rpm but needs and extra bullet to kill from 0m to 10m which is 5. and 6 BToK from 10m to 30m. But have you struggled with that gun? The easy control and rather fast muzzle velocity compensates for that extra BToK.

The new system not only brings skill to higher RoF weapons, but sheds some light on the very unpopular SMGs like the MP34 for example. These slow firing SMGs are not going to be treated in the same way as higher RoF ones. the number of BToK is going to be less at range to make them usable and more reliable over distance, and the high RoF ones still as deadly at close range, and if you can land those bullets, at medium range too.

DICE made a great mistake to only share the new BToK for those particular weapons and not their new RoF and recoil and even their specialization tree. I think this new system is going to give more variety and choice to the players and changes the current STG/Thompson meta. The TToK is not going to be as affected as the BToK reads IF the RoF is increased and they're more controllable.

External link →
about 5 years ago - /u/DICE-RandomRecoil - Direct link

Originally posted by NoctyrneSAGA

This TTK analysis openly ignores the effects of hitrate on effective TTK and is thus grossly off the mark regarding high RPM vs low RPM. Low RPM weapons have higher accuracy which means they do not need to expend the entirety of a 50 round magazine to land enough hits for a kill which high RPM weapons like the Thompson may need to. When you base your analysis on the idea that every round will hit, then of course it looks like high RPM wins every time.

You can consult these charts that account for hitrate on your TTK. You can clearly see that weapons like the Thompson do not wholly outclass weapons like the MP40.

Median engagement range is 22 meters. MP40 has better expected FTK than big mag Thompson starting around there. Weird.

High ROF Thompson is a bit better but you're also lucky getting two kills in a single mag and MP40 still does a lot better landing headshots, landing bullets (455 m/s vs 330 m/s muzzle velocity) and has around 50% less vertical recoil to take care of.

Why do we even add stats bars to the game when all people care about is ROF?

about 5 years ago - /u/DICE-RandomRecoil - Direct link

Originally posted by desty_

because in hip fire none of these matter... you can laser someone with the Suomi or Thompson at range, just don't ADS, so to make the other "Stat bars" relevant you would have to remove the hip fire specs.

Hipfire does not really help the Thompson vs the MP40. You need to go for high ROF and then your magazine capacity becomes a very limiting factor at 20 meters and above. And you'll have a much easier time getting headshots with the MP40.

about 5 years ago - /u/DICE-RandomRecoil - Direct link

Originally posted by DiabetotheobesePS4

Could you please take the system of tying weapon damage models to their caliber, within the same class, behind the barn and triple tap it with an M30 drilling.

It hurts balance severely.

Also, what is the median engagement range for medics the medic class? I bet it’s closer than 22 m.

Do you also collect data on weapon usage?

We have a game where people unironically put 3x scopes on every gun they can because engagement ranges can be so long, but suddenly when they play medic, everybody acts like 1x Thompson/Suomi or 720 rpm ZK-383 is the only viable choice because who ever would want to engage beyond 20 m.

Maybe people should give the other SMGs a try and they would see they are actually quite versatile and non-inferior to ARs up to 30 meters and can keep up quite well up to 50 meters.

about 5 years ago - /u/DICE-RandomRecoil - Direct link

Originally posted by DiabetotheobesePS4

I have 6000 kills with the MP40, I like it, but I still think it’s inferior to the Tommy/Suomi. The problem isn’t the RoF, it’s the large magazines and the ease of use it brings.

If you could put a three times scope on an MP40, as silly as it would be, it would be used more often, for the reason you stated.

As for the engagement ranges, I think the difference is, that medics can close the distance to a more favorable engagement range using smoke and unlimited healing, more so, than any other class, why pick a fight using an MP40 at 20 meters, when you can rush the guy and spray him with a Suomi?

That is a question of taste and playstyle. Why use a weapon that locks me into close range and requires closing the distance to get a kill when I could pick one that is much more flexible? That being said, I would expect low ROF SMGs to be much more popular if we still had zoom level customization that would let you pick 2x or 2.5x with iron sights.

about 5 years ago - /u/DICE-RandomRecoil - Direct link

Originally posted by Maelarion

Not really.

assuming every bullet hits

Makes this entire analysis quite limited.

You don't use high ROF Suomi on Panzerstorm for that 416 ms long range TTK?

about 5 years ago - /u/DICE-RandomRecoil - Direct link

Originally posted by Maelarion

Pff everyone knows Liberator is the meta weapon on Panzerstorm.

it would be if I ever get the joke one hit kill at 1337 meters range in...

about 5 years ago - /u/PartWelsh - Direct link

Originally posted by IlPresidente995

I hope that the specs tree are updated consequently as you said man.

Would like to have more info from u/PartWelsh u/Braddock512

All details will get shared in the Update Notes no matter what. What I'm going to spend my week doing this week is to ask if there's stuff we feel would be beneficial to share earlier than that (depending on how locked in some of that detail is at this distance out to the Update next month).

It's very much accepted that folks are keen to get more insight into the upcoming changes so I'll keep you informed of what we do next.