about 1 month ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

We are working hard to quickly resolve live issues.

Be sure to keep an eye on current issues at our Trello Issues Tracker.

For more help or assistance with your account, contact Dauntless Player Support.

Missed capturing it? It may be worth waiting for next time, check out how to capture and report bugs after they happen here.

- Phoenix Labs Development Team

Greetings Slayers!

With every patch comes unforeseen bugs. Until the next patch is released, this will be the place to post your reports on bugs or other technical issues. These Megathreads provide both the developers and the community a consolidated place to track current and pending issues.

Prerequisites:

We request that you upload your screenshots/videos of potential issues to Google Drive and include the link to that evidence with your report. When using Google Drive, please make sure the Share Settings for each file/folder is set to "Anyone with the link", otherwise we will not be able to see it. You may also use unlisted Youtube videos.

Provide as much information as you can both in the format and in your Extra Details. This helps us recreate bugs on our end and discover if the issue is widespread or localized.

Please copy & paste the format below when creating a comment.

Bug Submission Format:

In-Game Name:

Type of Bug: Behemoth, Weapon, Gear, Performance, Cosmetic, Visual, etc.

Google Drive Link(s): See Prerequisites for instructions.

Normal Behavior: What is normally supposed to occur?

Actual Behavior: What actually happened?

System Specs: Operating System, CPU, GPU, (or Console).

Geographic Location: This is so we can verify which server you are connected to, you can be as specific as country or as broad as continent.

Reproduction Rate: 1/10: Occurs once every 10 times, 10/10: Occurs every time

Reproduction Steps: How can we cause it to happen so that it may be tested?

Session ID: (Optional) This can be found at the top right-hand corner of your screen.

Extra Details: Anything else that may help?

Every comment might not be addressed, but rest assured that the devs go through each one.

Before commenting, please aim to upvote comments that are the same or similar to an issue you have experienced, as someone else may have mentioned it already.

External link →
about 1 month ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

We are working hard to quickly resolve live issues.

Be sure to keep an eye on current issues at our Trello Issues Tracker.

For more help or assistance with your account, contact Dauntless Player Support.

Missed capturing it? It may be worth waiting for next time, check out how to capture and report bugs after they happen here.

- Phoenix Labs Development Team

Greetings Slayers!

With every patch comes unforeseen bugs. Until the next patch is released, this will be the place to post your reports on bugs or other technical issues. These Megathreads provide both the developers and the community a consolidated place to track current and pending issues.

Prerequisites:

We request that you upload your screenshots/videos of potential issues to Google Drive and include the link to that evidence with your report. When using Google Drive, please make sure the Share Settings for each file/folder is set to "Anyone with the link", otherwise we will not be able to see it. You may also use unlisted Youtube videos.

Provide as much information as you can both in the format and in your Extra Details. This helps us recreate bugs on our end and discover if the issue is widespread or localized.

Please copy & paste the format below when creating a comment.

Bug Submission Format:

In-Game Name:

Type of Bug: Behemoth, Weapon, Gear, Performance, Cosmetic, Visual, etc.

Google Drive Link(s): See Prerequisites for instructions.

Normal Behavior: What is normally supposed to occur?

Actual Behavior: What actually happened?

System Specs: Operating System, CPU, GPU, (or Console).

Geographic Location: This is so we can verify which server you are connected to, you can be as specific as country or as broad as continent.

Reproduction Rate: 1/10: Occurs once every 10 times, 10/10: Occurs every time

Reproduction Steps: How can we cause it to happen so that it may be tested?

Session ID: (Optional) This can be found at the top right-hand corner of your screen.

Extra Details: Anything else that may help?

Every comment might not be addressed, but rest assured that the devs go through each one.

Before commenting, please aim to upvote comments that are the same or similar to an issue you have experienced, as someone else may have mentioned it already.

External link →
about 1 month ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by -Ethereally-

Pangar is desyncing really badly in both Hunting Grounds and Escalations. It'll roll, then reappear back to it's origin point among other things, that being the most egregious. It happened every encounter consistently.

Pangar slow-roll start is hotfixed now.

about 1 month ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by AresThreeFive

Tonic crafting is still locked out if you had the Slayer's Path completely maxed out before getting the quest to unlock the tonic crafting. I was able to complete the Medicinal Purposes quest that was available by getting a tonic from a gift however that only unlocked grenade crafting.

Edit: After a relog I see that the quest for the Slayer's Path is autocomplete to unlock the tonics.

Awesome, we did just hotfix that, good to hear it's working now!

about 1 month ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by Tall_Antelope5641

Several of the issues that I noticed from the start of Awakening haven't really been fixed on the Nintendo Switch yet, it feels like. There are many situations that will cause an impromptu force close and it happens too erratically to pin down any one cause. It might just be a case of the new engine being trouble though, but it's still a very egregious thing.

More consistently a problem, however, is with The Hunger. The new power it gained was great, and I like it as a standalone weapon more than I did before already. However, it's Portal Dive Legendary Ability is still bugged where you're greeted with a weird screen that makes it impossible to tell where you're going to land until you click it. It's especially problematic for anyone who took the talent where Portal Dive will take your HP to perform the attack and refund it on a behemoth impact if they continue to miss the attack because they can't tell where their target is.

This was an issue after Awakening launched, and there were a couple threads that showcased pictures of it, but it might have eluded the devs notice amidst all the vitriol in passed days. If this could be looked at, it would be very appreciated.

Thanks, we're still working on performance, and looking into The Hunger legendary ability.

about 1 month ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by -Ethereally-

Chaox from Alluring Moons still have collision, and gets in the way of myself and teammates, leading me to opt out of using them in team scenarios.

This is known, looks like there was an issue with the fix. We're looking into it, sorry about that!

about 1 month ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by ShogunRufo27

I still cannot play the game, the servers still keep crashing even after the update, ive been waiting for 2 weeks and i still cant play, what am i supposed to do?

Can you please write into support at https://support.playdauntless.com/

about 1 month ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by Impossible_Oven7852

▪ In-Game Name: Tsadriu

▪ Type of Bug: Sound bug

▪ Google Drive Link(s): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1szWCnV5k6xyurYtMvOX5vWJ43Y8bHr2S?usp=sharing

▪ Normal Behavior: Audio of spawned objects should stop as soon as that object is despawned.

▪ Actual Behavior: The audio of the object persists even after being despawned.

▪ System Specs: Windows 11

▪ Geographic Location: Swirtzerland

▪ Reproduction Rate: 10/10

▪ Reproduction Steps: The easiest way is to equip Bane & Balm chainblades. When you have at least 1 charge of your Special, use it on a behemoth and activate Heavy while in the air, this will spawn the orbs. Now, let the orbs chase you until they despawn visually. You will notice that the sound persists, even though the orbs are gone.

Thank you for the details, I forwarded this to the team to look at!

about 1 month ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by Ceekrit

I was using the golden claws and was testing to see if the "increase temp critical duration" weapon talent would apply to my other weapon and I found that upon swapping weapons the buff timer reset, allowing me to have infinite critical if I wanted, which I imagine is unintended. Also I know this isn't the appropriate place to ask but since what is supposed to happen in that situation?

The icon will refresh but it should drop in the appropriate time, so if you swap with a few seconds left and swap, it should move super fast.

about 1 month ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by Appropriate_Road6630

The legendary ability of The Hunger is not working (i have legendary 3 talent equipped but i dont know if that’s the cause or not.)

What device are you on? In what way is it not working?

about 1 month ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by No-Ask-3420

Here are some problems:

  1. Shadowtouched Koshai's tail at one point looks really weird as it looks like it's severed aside from the feathers underneath.
  2. Gnasher and Nayzaga's hitboxes are odd.
  3. There is a little desync with Embermane's (Especially Bloodfire's) firebreath attack.
  4. At the start of the fight, Skarn's rocks look almost destroyed.
  5. Frostwulf's interrupted animation is similar to it's stagger animation.
  6. Deepfrost Skarn's intterupt from charging attack Is basically It's interrupt from being knocked from it's hind legs.

That's all for now.

Thanks, were these all in the past day post patch? We recently updated some behemoth issues so I want to be sure here before forwarding.

about 1 month ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by Appropriate_Road6630

Pc. Like the timer is just stuck and i cant activate it. I haven’t tried unequipping the legendary talent 3 though, maybe that’s the solution lol

Thanks for the additional details, logged and forwarded to the team as well as the response from u/Emotional_Cook_4467

29 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by madbugg182

I purchased Twin Suns a couple of days before the Awakening update and do not have them in my inventory anymore, I was under the impression that they were still viable in the new update but they no longer show up in my inventory. Any help is appreciated!

If you had them, you should still. However, they're a free unlock a few quests in if you for some reason didn't get them which would be faster than writing into support. If you purchased them with platinum, please write in anyway, I want to make sure you didn't spend on nothing.

29 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by MagicalVictini

▪ In-Game Name: The Godhand

▪ Type of Bug: Weapon

▪ Normal Behavior: Weapon passive second talent is supposed to cause sigils to instantly activate

▪ Actual Behavior: sigils do not instantly activate, with the talent doing nothing

▪ System Specs: XBox One X

▪ Geographic Location: Australia

▪ Reproduction Rate: 10/10: Occurs every time

▪ Reproduction Steps: Use the godhands legendary in a way the sigil should be created under a behemoth

Forwarded this one to the team, thank you!

29 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by Remote-Nectarine1299

I cant purchase elite hunt pass i just keep clicking 'upgrade to elite' pass and i get nowhere

Sorry to hear that, can you please write into Dauntless Player Support for this one?

29 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by elnachonacho578

I never get legendary drops, idk if its awful luck but ive killed thousands of dreadfrost boreus and i havent got a single drop

I've forwarded this to the team to make sure it's not bad luck, that's a lot of Boreus. Thank you!

29 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by Mysterious-Top4148

When upgrading a weapon using aetherite the game thinks there is another level after the level 60 (see the video). https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EZoX-R93SDvASDtbK8BQ0-8VQuEqF3Qg/view?usp=sharing

Oh, thank you! I've forwarded this to the team, the video really helps!

28 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by Ok-Feeling-3990

On Switch, the behemoth drops/loot popup on hunting grounds cannot be closed once opened, escapable only by closing Dauntless entirely as far as I can tell.

Thanks for the report, we've seen this a bit, if you have a reliable way to reproduce it, please let us know. In the meantime, we are looking into it. Thank you again!

28 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by ursudae117

the exquisite sunburn rumour part III is still impossible, you can't deal damage with the Call of Dawn (Rezakiri sword) because that doesn't exist anymore

Thanks so much for the work you're putting into the game!

Thank you, I'll forward this rumour over to the team!

28 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by zamansakib

"use bulwark tonic 10 times while fighting frost behemoths" - objective counter doesn't go up no matter how many times I drink the potion.

the quest is "rumor: isgryth jehylm (III)"

Forwarded to the team, thank you again!

25 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by zipfilerr

Nayzaga ang shockjaw nayzaga give an epic drop called rumour: rockstar dye. I don't have a rumour of that name and I rarely ever see the epic drop shockheart shard. It seems like it is dropping the old rumour instead of the shockheart shard. Ps5

Shockheart is a chance to drop. Have you broken Shockjaw Nayzaga head while it's enraged?

25 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by Ceekrit

By the way I probably should've clarified this sooner but when I was asking what's supposed to happen in that situation I meant like if I apply a buff to myself with a weapon that has the "extend temp stack duration" am I supposed keep that extra 10-20 seconds if I swap to my other weapon? I really need an answer as a build I'm theorycrafting depends on if it's a yes or no.

It should remove that bonus. What was the second weapon you were using with Golden Claws?

25 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by Darthplagueis13

Thing to add on the Hunger legendary ability thing: It does not only occur when the Hunger is in the sub weapon slot. I've also seen it happen with the Hunger as the main weapon.

Thank you! I added that to the notes.

25 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by matthewhughes9

i've noticed alot of camera clipping issues on any view higher then the default values, especially notable when you try looking directly up

Thanks for the report! This is a known issue on high FOV settings along with some terrain occasionally warping a bit at certain distances/angles. The workaround is currently lower FoV, we didn't want to remove the high FoV options and impact players that prefer that despite the visuals. In short, this is a big workload so no ETA on a fix.

25 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by Nalin8

In-Game Name: Nalin8

Type of Bug: Memory leak

Normal Behavior: The game shouldn't leak memory.

Actual Behavior: The game seems to have a memory leak involving player loadouts. Maybe loading any object in general. If you grind for Frostfall for an hour, the game will eventually reach something like 20GB of memory used and crash. I think its happening as behemoths spawn and despawn, or players go in and out of range and the game reloads their models. The easiest way to replicate this leak is to just scroll your loadout list. Open up Task Manager, pin the window on top of the game, and look at the game's memory as you scroll back and forth in the loadout list. It will constantly increase as you flip through your loadouts.

System Specs: Windows 11, Ryzen 5700X3D CPU, Radeon 7900XTX GPU, 32GB RAM.

Geographic Location: US West.

Reproduction Rate: 10/10

Reproduction Steps: Scroll back and forth through your saved loadouts list. As it loads each new loadout, the memory will keep increasing. You might need different cosmetics on every loadout for it to load it in.

Thank you, I forwarded this to our team tasked with improving performance.

25 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by Ok-Feeling-3990

Sometimes I don't get weapon experience even from higher-level behemoths in hunting grounds.  Bizarrely, this seems to be caused by the presence of non-partied other slayers being on the same island instance with me, as that's the only variable - if I'm the only slayer on the island I get experience as expected.

It's based on the higher level of your two weapons, regardless of active weapon. Can you please double-check if this is the root cause?

24 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by Ok-Feeling-3990

I have.  Boreal Outpost, lv10 silver sword, lv1~3 bane&balm.  These parameters are constant.  The only variables are wether or not I'm alone on the island, and whether or not I get experience.

Thank you so much, I forwarded this to the team to look into.

21 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by Ok-Feeling-3990

Several kinds of tonic and grenade (including frenzy tonics and airstrike beacons) currently seem impossible to craft regardless of having the materials.  The left Craft button is obscured by a black rectangle (?) and "craft 10" is more conventionally disabled.

Some of these unlock a ways down the quest lines. If you feel you're past that point, can you please write in and we'll have a look.

21 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by ImaginaryWombat

Game crashes every time I try to craft bulk essences

We're looking into the issue on PS and Switch, if it's on another device, please let me know!

21 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by Ok-Feeling-3990

On PS4, the social menu flickers obnoxiously, and frequently/randomly returns the cursor to the top in the middle of trying to use it.

This one is being looked into along with the crashes there, thank you!

17 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by Ok-Feeling-3990

Addition The Hunger's legendary ability issues:  unable to use it in the Training Grounds.  It doesn't even show up in the list of combos/inputs on the side.

We're looking into The Hunger issues, thank you for the report!

16 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by KAKAll-MAD

Rumor: extraordinary sunburn (III) Main objective: Deal 250k damage to a Flaming Rezakiri using the "call of the dawn" sword.

Unless this mission is a spoiler for one of the swords that will be coming in the next major update, there will be no way to accomplish the objective since this sword no longer exists.

Thank you, this should be fixed in a coming patch!

16 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by Pyrobob4

I reported this in game, but I dont see it on the trello, so I'll re-report it here.

The quest "Excellence Strikes" does not track progress for the 5000 damage sub-objective. It remains at 0 after multiple attempts (I've tried at least once a week since update). Here is a video of my attempt from this morning. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3qNlkX6IJY

It's possible this bug is specific to me, as I have watched 2 friends complete this quest.

Looking into this one, in the meantime can you try it on a higher hitpoint target with a non-part shot to make sure you're doing 5k core?

15 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by Lockstick

▪ Type of Bug: Achievements

▪ Normal Behavior: "De-Icer" achievement should unlock when you get two interrupts on a Deepfrost Skarn in a single fight and "Pass Completion" achievement should unlock when reaching level 50 in the hunt pass

▪ Actual Behavior: "De-Icer" achievement doesn't unlock even when getting 6 interrupts on a single Deepfrost Skarn, "Pass Completion" not unlocked when level 50+ in the HP

▪ Reproduction Rate: 10/10: Tried 3 times to get ~5 interrupts on a single Deepfrost Skarn, never got the achievement, also tried to get a couple extra levels in the hunt pass but no achievement

We got this one on the to-do list, no current workarounds, thank you for the report!

13 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by ursudae117

I don't know if I'm doing it wrong, but I'm not getting any Earthshaper Fangs for Toxic Phage IV by breaking any of Earthshaper Fenroar's head parts. (horn and actual head)

You're not the only one, we're looking into this, ty!

11 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by matthewhughes9

Behemoth part's seem to be unbreakable if you're too far below their level. It seems to be about 10 or so more levels of difference between your weapon and the behemoth and it will just not be able to break parts, even if you spend the entire fight focusing one part, it will die before any of its parts break idk what causes this but it seems consistent with all weapon types vs a hellion leg that was about 12 levels higher.

They should scale with heath. Head and Tails need certain weapon types to break them now. So head requires a smashing type weapon like hammer, or Thundersoul sword. Tail requires slashing like Silver Sword, Chainblades etc. all other parts should break equally relative to core health.

8 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by NefariousnessFit4965

Game gets stuck on loading screen when loading back to ramsgate. Ps5. This is a random occurance and getting rather irritating. Also happens to friends so not just myself.

We're looking into this one, thank you!

8 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by OkState3911

▪ In-Game Name: 69DemonStar69

▪ Weapon Name: The Godhand

▪ Type of Bug: Weapon

▪ Unlisted Youtube Video Link: https://youtu.be/SiSyUS8DlUA

▪ Normal Behavior: Laser is supposed to fire for a few seconds

▪ Actual Behavior: Fires for less than a second

▪ System Specs: OS> 64-bit operating system, CPU>AMD Ryzen 5 7535HS with Radeon Graphics, GPU>NVIDA GeForce RTX 4050 Laptop GPU

▪ Geographic Location: Guyana

▪ Reproduction Rate:10/10: Occurs every time

▪ Reproduction Steps: Equip weapon to left slot

▪ Session ID: 55a4eaaf27bc43c49bc50f253feab7b7-uxlhxle7

▪ Extra Details: I've tried switching the keybind to shoot the laser it still just doenst

Thank you, looking into this one!

8 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by Ceimash

In-Game Name: Ceimash

▪ Type of Bug: Reaper's Axe Ultimate Abilty removes all but one Speed stack when it expires

▪ Normal Behavior: It is normally supposed to just remove the 2 held stacks of Speed it provided

▪ Actual Behavior: It removed all stacks and leaves the player with 1 stack of speed

▪ System Specs: PC, playing on Geforce Now

▪ Geographic Location: EU Geforce now West Servers

▪ Reproduction Rate: 9/10 times I was it Gauntlet it removed all my stacks

▪ Reproduction Steps: Yeap just get yourself more than 2 stacks of Speed, Activate Reaper's Axe ultimate and watch how the Speed stacks disappear.

Thank you, looking into this now!

8 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by Ceimash

In-Game Name: Ceimash

▪ Type of Bug: Reaper's Axe Ultimate Abilty removes all but one Speed stack when it expires

▪ Normal Behavior: It is normally supposed to just remove the 2 held stacks of Speed it provided

▪ Actual Behavior: It removed all stacks and leaves the player with 1 stack of speed

▪ System Specs: PC, playing on Geforce Now

▪ Geographic Location: EU Geforce now West Servers

▪ Reproduction Rate: 9/10 times I was it Gauntlet it removed all my stacks

▪ Reproduction Steps: Yeap just get yourself more than 2 stacks of Speed, Activate Reaper's Axe ultimate and watch how the Speed stacks disappear.

Do you have a specific way to reproduce it?

  • I've tried with both temporary and held stacks
  • I tried with weapon in primary as well as secondary slot
  • Tried with second weapon being each other axe to make sure no odd interactions with other axes
    • Tried specifically with Acceleration Engine from Fury of the Mountain to check for odd interactions
  • Tried with second weapon being non-axe
7 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by Altruistic_Bid7263

The Hunger Sword legendary ability doesn't let you use it. It's stuck at the same point of the cooldown and doesn't progress.

This one's known and being looked into, thank you!

7 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by Ceimash

I recorded some footage of me using the build and going back and watching it through. I realize now that, the talents that give held stacks on the Axe replace the temp stacks and then when I swap back to Molten Edict, the temp stacks don't come back. So issue solved. All I need to do is turn off those talents. Nothing to see here.

Oh wow, that would have taken a while to figure out, thank you! I forwarded it to the team in case we see something similar later, that's interesting.

6 days ago - /u/Cinco4706 - Direct link

Originally posted by Main_Ad_7924

Hello, I hope I’m using this right. I’ve never used Reddit before. I asked in the discord, but the answers were varied and nobody could agree what the intentional interaction is, so I’ll post it here so hopefully I can find out. I was testing to see if I could get my sword to deal consistent wound damage when I stumbled upon a weird interaction. Was wondering if this is a bug or if it’s intended. 

Two perks I have on that I want you to notice:

Merciless : “+100 wound damage against staggered behemoths”

Overpower : “when a behemoth is staggered gain 3 temp might”

I noticed when breaking behemoth parts or interrupting behemoths with Merciless that I was dealing wound damage, even though the behemoth wasn’t “staggered”. This led me to test if I would gain might from overpower by interrupting or breaking parts.  There are two videos, one where I use the hunger to demonstrate how a part break triggers merciless (I do not have overpower on this build, this is where I discovered the interaction) and a second one where I break a part to trigger merciless and stagger a behemoth to trigger overpower. You can clearly see in the Godhand Rezakiri video the difference between the two “staggers” where I deal the 100 extra wound damage after a part break using the laser beam, but gain no might and on the actual stagger damage stagger where I gain 3 might at the very end of the fight. Both perks simply say “stagger”, so why are their interactions different? Is one of them bugged?

▪ In-Game Name: Krakyn Zeus

▪ Type of Bug: Gear

▪ Google Drive Link(s): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1b397W9e5MJw1oAjxgxGKtHmj8-wNGjEi

▪ Normal Behavior: I am not sure. 

▪ Actual Behavior: Merciless procs on part damage and interrupts, overpower only procs on stagger damage stagger

▪ System Specs: Console

▪ Geographic Location: Washington State, US WEST

▪ Reproduction Rate: 10/10

▪ Reproduction Steps: use overpower (possibly other “stagger perks” and merciless).

▪ Session ID: 

▪ Extra Details: I haven’t tested it, but this may be different for other perks such as carve.

One is against already staggered, one is when it's staggered so I'd expect them to act slightly different. Since there's been contention I don't want to make assumptions and will run this by the design team.