Original Post — Direct link

Anybody feel like the nerf to Pottery was overzealous? The sheer number of specializations that Pottery now requires feels really oppressive to me, and what used to be a cheap, fast opener material for t2 rooms just feels like a source of bathroom furniture and an annoying requirement for Advanced Upgrade 1's. I'd never choose to make bricks over other stuff given the fact you need 2 (Logger, Smelter) and want 3 (Mason) specializations supporting 5-6(?) different recipes just to make one brick. Oh, and now I have to gather sand on top of clay, so two different areas to dig and more material to haul.

It might have been better if molds were recoverable like oil barrels I guess?

I'd 1000% take Carpentry or Glassworking over Pottery for t2 mats right now. Glass feels cheaper even if it is or isn't "strictly" cheaper, and lumber has so much more utility. Plus Lumber got cheaper on wood by being made with boards instead of hewn logs. That's like half the wood it used to cost.

External link →
5 months ago - /u/SLG-Dennis - Direct link

Originally posted by Difficult_Tough4270

Pottery got nerfed into oblivion along with a few other specialties.

The developers went overboard nerfing almost everything without buffing anything to compensate.

We don't "nerf" or "buff", but change the gameplay towards the design goals.
All professions over time are supposed to get intricate and complex crafting trees that are heavily interlinked.

5 months ago - /u/SLG-Dennis - Direct link

Originally posted by Difficult_Tough4270

Not true. Some of the pickaxes were nerfed. Do I need to list more examples?

This is not an MMO, we don't nerf things.

5 months ago - /u/SLG-Dennis - Direct link

Originally posted by Difficult_Tough4270

What does MMO have to do with anything?
Buffs and nerfs are how you balance any game. For example nerfing charred food? Buffing other foods?

I guess it makes no sense to ride the horse to death on terms. We don't use these terms and don't feel them applying, they are a fit for MMO's and competetive multiplayer games - not for Eco.

Our balance does not revolve around any kind of competetive advantage, singular player perception or "strength" that needs to be brought in line, but solely around the concept of interlinking mechanics to facilitate the necessity of cooperation on the scale of a "default" public server. Of course you are free to call that 'nerf' or 'buff', I don't think it fits.

I'm hence not even sure what you would mean with "nerfed" pickaxes. I know we fixed the modern axe and the chainsaw, as one was intended to be optimized for cutting logs and the other for felling trees - but that wasn't the case. If one now is "worse" for the other purpose you probably would call that a nerf. We don't use that term. It is now working as intended.

5 months ago - /u/SLG-Dennis - Direct link

Originally posted by Difficult_Tough4270

I agree, it doesn't make sense to try and fight this industry term, a term that is applied to all different genres of games.

At one point Baking was buffed to be competitive with Cooking. How was it buffed? Some numbers for food values for Baking was increased. One specialty was made better to be more competitive with another that fills the same role.

Feel free to call that an "adjustment" and not a buff, but everyone else understand that is what a buff is.

You are entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't make it a fact :)

The term "competetive" is not used correctly. We don't adjust things to be competetive, but to be fleshed out and usable, given we have tons of WIP stuff. The game is not about competition. We make changes for the game to take longer in general (as some people noticed correctly and which is not a "nerf" - if it is for you, expect tons of nerfs coming, though) and for gameplay to work out as we intend. There is no thinking about something is too "weak" or too "strong" with very few exceptions. We only assess the effects it has on gameplay time and interlinking mechanics. I'd agree on changes for baking being such exceptions, as in that case they were specifically changed to give them more use. In the long run baking recipes will simply be required for other things, though, so this was a simple bandaid. How that could apply to pickaxes, no idea. They must be used, there is no need to incentivize them and no competition for them. There is vehicles, but they serve a different purpose at other gameplay stages.

There is not much you could buff or nerf as that would imply to bring it in line for some strength that doesn't exist on collaborative gameplay. Professions aren't intended to be strong or compete with others. In opposite, they are supposed to not compete with other professions, but require their help. There will by the nature of diversity of professions always be professions some people will consider to be "stronger" or "weaker" for some goals they have in mind. But the point is those are not the goals we have in mind. We don't balance professions around income, for example.

I personally have never heard Anno 1800 buffing or nerfing anything either, by the way. Nor have I ever called changes to balance like that myself.

Just telling you that you can't expect me to comment on any "nerfs" or "buffs" when almost all changes we do are in a grand scope of the design goal working out. We will make changes to that all the time until the gameplay fits what we want, but never with "nerf" or "buff" in our minds. We can't talk on the same level if your assessment of things has additional things in mind that we never had. I have not seen many players in Eco approach changes to balance with that in mind either, as the terms generally convey unhappiness about competetive factors that we do not consider at all. That's why I say they don't fit. The majority of players using these terms convey such feelings. I wouldn't tell you this if it was otherwise, given I wouldn't be surprised about the usage of the terms you have shown. Probably to you "nerf" just means changing values down and "buff" values up. That's not what I perceive players to use the term for or what I have used it for myself - that would imply it's not having a judgment on competetive impact behind.

The best case I could think of when "nerf" could apply is when we would change stuff at mechanics, as they tend to make most money. But that again requires a view of competitiveness. The point is for all professions ultimately having enough content, but not all of them having equal opportunities for market income. (Just like real life) Competition at most is intended between the same profession on a market level, but our changes are typically in relation to unrelated professions.

Every profession needs to play their role, that can be vastly different from both gameplay (like lots of manual labour vs lots of crafting) and effects. Given we consider governmental mechanics to be a core mechanic, it is acceptable to us that professions by their nature aren't equal - which can result in different play experiences depending on governance. Farmers requiring a lot of room is a problem the government is supposed to solve (Just like real life). It probably doesn't hurt to tax the mechanics people a bit for that ... Point being - we have no intention to have professions in any way be the same "strength" or "competetive" level. Hence we also don't buff or nerf them usually. Each of them are supposed to have sufficient content, but also to be unique. That doesn't mean that Farmers will ultimately be able to compete with high industry goods in terms of income or anything else. They are nontheless required for everyones success - so you better treat them well :) That is a different approach from games where the point is that everyone has their unique mechanics and is supposed to have "fair play equal grounds". That doesn't exist here. Your government hopefully establishes what you will perceive as fair play.

Ultimately the term "nerf" needs a relation basis for judgement. And without knowing your personal one, it's difficult to say anything. Like what got "worse"? And is that actually worse?

5 months ago - /u/SLG-Dennis - Direct link

Originally posted by Difficult_Tough4270

The term competitive IS used correctly. Both specialties provide the same function, food. No one was buying baking food because it was "worse" than cooking food. It was worse because it had lower values assigned than Cooking did. The stomach has limited capacity, so people must make a choice what to buy.

Baking was "buffed" to become more in line "cooking". Now more people sometimes buy baking food in stores instead of its competitor, cooking food. Both are useful now, so the buff was successful.

I get you want to bring the game closer to its design goal. I get you don't want to encourage competition. That there is such a long response that completely ignored the simple example says a lot. There is nothing to be afraid of using these words when it applies. You could just say you don't consider the brick change to be a nerf.

I did not, I did acknowledge in the very first paragraph that the baking example can be called one.