over 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

Hi folks

We have just posted the exciting news that we have been working on a native Mac client over on our news page.

I have started this thread to discuss the news. I will try to answer questions where I can, but as development is ongoing, I will not be able to answer everything.

Here are the answers to a few common questions that I expect to come up:

Q: Why a native client?

A: The native macOS client will bring performance and reliability improvements to users. One of the big advantages a native client offers us is easier debugging of client issues when running on macOS. As it will use Metal directly and not DirectX via Wine, it also allows us to leverage better use of the system resources macOS offers.

Q: What versions of macOS will the native client support?

A: This is to be confirmed closer to release. However, we generally recommend that macOS users update to the latest available macOS version that is available to them.

Q: What are the minimum system requirements to run the native EVE client?

A: This is to be confirmed closer to the time of release.

Q: What graphics cards will the EVE Online client support?

A: We plan to support all internal GPUs. External GPU support is not planned at this time.

Q: What does this mean for the Wine client?

A: We will continue to support the Mac Wine client until the release of the native macOS client. When the native macOS client is released, we will be deprecating the Wine based client at or around the same time. We will give everyone a heads up before this happens.

Q: What about Apple Silicon (M1) ?

A: The current EVE Online Wine based client will not run on Apple Silicon devices. We have explored this, but have decided to put our full weight behind the native macOS client work to give players the best long-term experience possible.

Once released, the first native macOS client will work on Apple Silicon devices with Rosetta2.

In the future, we plan to release an EVE Online client that is native to Apple Silicon so the use of Rosetta2 is not needed. This will be in the form of a ‘Universal app’.

Q: Can I run EVE Online on Apple Silicon, using 3rd party software right now?

A: We are aware that there is third party software which may allow you to run the current Wine based client on Apple Silicon successfully. CCP does not forbid the use of such software, however it is entirely unsupported.

Q: I have read that DX9 support is mostly present for Mac users using Wine. Will this be deprecated?

A: The plan to deprecate DirectX 9, as mentioned in many previous articles is still the plan. Keeping and maintaining DirectX 9 takes significant resources. While we will not be deprecating it at the exact same time as the native macOS client release, expect it to happen a short while after.

Q: Can I help?

A: Yes! We plan to run a public test of the macOS client in Q1 2021. The focus of our first test will be identifying rendering issues, capturing any crashes the client experiences, and taking performance measurements. Look out for a future devblog that will include the dates and information on how you can join in!

Q: What is the release date for the client to work on Tranquillity?

A: There is no final release date yet. Rest assured that we are excited about this as you, and we want to bring the native macOS client to you as soon as we can.

Here are a few work in progress screenshots:

1 13584×2240 1.8 MB

2 23584×2240 1.67 MB

3 33584×2240 1.41 MB

over 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

There is some assembly kicking about, yep, but it’s not just that. There is a number of areas in not only the codebase, but the systems around it that will need to be adjusted. Getting the native Intel based client working is a huge step towards the Apple Silicon version though.

I hope to do a devblog with some more details in the future.

over 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

Comparing against Wine isn’t really something we’re doing right now, mainly because we would be comparing Metal against a DirectX 9 codepath.
We also don’t have a number of optimisations in place right now: both on the rendering side, and for the rest of the client code. That will come in time :grinning:

It’s fair to say that we are aiming for parity with the Windows DX11 client in the future.

over 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

In short: Jumping to another OS is a big move for us. Jumping to another OS on a different architecture is even bigger.
We still need to tackle many of the same challenges for both, so it makes sense for us to bring it to as many users as possible.

over 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

I understand the frustration when an OS doesn’t have the features you use in an upgrade, I’ve been there myself.

My comment is really aimed towards the OS versions we are likley to support. There has not been a decision yet on which these are, so don’t read into it too much. We want to support as many users as we possibly can - but it is fair to say that we’ll be making sure it will run on the latest versions of macOS.

about 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

Hi
Not just yet - we still have plenty of work we need to do. Moving to a new OS is a huge project for us :slight_smile:
Rest assured, we will share any news as soon as we can.

about 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

Hi
When we have something that is available to test, we’ll be posting up a devblog and letting everyone know how they can join in :slight_smile:
You don’t want to use it just yet, as development is ongoing :slight_smile:

about 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

There will always be some difference due to underlying OS / GPU / Driver differences, but they are much closer in the way they look now. In part this is because we can now use the post processing features that were only avaliable on DX11 in Windows previously.

about 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

This is a question that every producer is terrified to answer :wink:. We don’t want to get hopes up, only for us to have to push it back.

We were aiming to have a public test out in Q1 of this year. I’m still hopeful this will be the case, but there is a lot of moving parts with a project as big as this.

There isn’t a timeline for a final release - we’ll base that on how the public test goes, how many crash reports we see, performance tests etc.

about 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

Not yet - but it’s not because I’m trying to avoid the issue. We’re simply at the development phase, with plenty of work for us to tackle. Any performance measurements I give now could change based on development work. I’m sure you can understand that I don’t want to give any figures that are not reflective of what the final product will be.

Suffice to say, we want the performance to be the best it can be and it’s something which is being monitored closely.

about 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

Some of the input issues are due to OS shortcut clashes, which then cause issues with Wine. This means it has difficulty in realising the true status of a key (sometimes the ‘stuck’ issue being reported).
Other issues are just due to the OS / Wine / Game layers that get crossed - if any of them has an issue, it gives a poor experience. I’ve noticed this in particular when the system is under heavy load.

We’ve been doing a bit of a dive into input the last few days, including rewriting some core bits of it (like default shortcuts).

When we have a public test, I’ll be keen to hear comments about input / shortcuts, as I know there has been weirdness with the Wine client.

about 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

Ahhh, I knew someone would remind me in here :sweat_smile: :sweat_smile:

I’ll be upfront with everyone: We’re not going to get the public test out this month, even though that was our original intention. We had some stability issues that would have limited the purpose of the test (as well as giving a bad experience). These are pretty much resolved now.

I have estimations for a new date which I hope to share with everyone soon™ in the form of a devblog.

When it comes to the public test, we need to ensure we get as much valuable data from it as possible (performance measurements, crash reports, etc.). While I know a delay is annoying, it simply allows us to build a better client as a result.

almost 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

If all goes to plan, there should be a news article in the next week that has more of an update :slight_smile:

Rest assured, I will post updates as soon as I can :grinning:. A lot of the time there isn’t anything to report, as it’s just ongoing development work - which will be the case for a while.

While I know macOS users are super excited about this, keep in mind that the first playtest is going to be for finding the more serious problems (crashing, performance issues etc.). A total move from Wine to a Native Mac Client is going to take a while :grinning:

almost 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

They are handled by 2 seperate teams :slight_smile:

almost 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

We’ve just posted some more info for the playtest. I’m very excited to hear the feedback :grinning:

I’ll open the feedback threads once the playtest is live.

almost 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

You will simply need to be on the latest version of the launcher, and then select Singularity when the test has started :grinning:

almost 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

I don’t, I’m afraid. Password issues are normally always related to when the mirror of data happened. Try older passwords is the only recomendation I can give.
Unfortunately, There is not a password reset ability for the test servers.

almost 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

Hi
For the playtest, there will be no option to launch the Wine client on Sisi via the launcher. Once we end the playtest, you will be able to use the Wine client again on Sisi.
Tranquility will remain unaffected by the playtest, and that will remain on the Wine client during this period.

We are currently investigating what it will take to support older macOS versions, but I can’t say for sure if this is possible yet.

almost 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

Coffee and pouring cream is my normal daily routine :wink:

almost 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

Hi

Without wanting to get hooked on the terminology; I’ve been careful not to call this a beta, as that has a specific meaning in software development. This is most definitely a ‘test’ to find the big issues at this stage :grinning:

The database should be recent, although I don’t know the exact date it will be from right now.

almost 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

What version are you currently running, out of curiosity?

almost 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

By default, there is a minimum required download. Any additional assets that are needed will be downloaded in the background by the client using our ‘Download on Demand’ system.

You should be able to select a full download from within the launcher and have it work for the playtest. Please keep in mind that this will increase the install size of the EVE dramatically, as we are not migrating assets over from your current Wine install.

As to ‘if it matters’ - that’s difficult to say. DoD is quite robust as a system and has been used in EVE for many years. If you don’t normally choose to download the entire client for some reason, then you probably won’t need to for this test.
A complete download is very useful for people on slow connections and would like to download overnight, or if they are traveling and bandwidth caps / costs may apply.

almost 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

I don’t believe any outage last night was due to the upcoming test. I’m not aware of it, so it was probably unrelated.

almost 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

Good morning. It has not been deployed yet - that will be today. I will update this thread and unlock the feedback threads once it is live :slight_smile:

almost 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

The test client has been deployed. As long as you’re running the latest launcher, you should be able to select Singularity, patch and join in now :slight_smile:

Please try to keep feedback in the correct threads where possible - it will really help us make sure we don’t miss anything :grinning:

almost 3 years ago - CCP_Habakuk - Direct link

Avaria Kamakuza and Otikka Muutaras: Unfortunately your accounts are too new and do not exist yet on Singularity.

almost 3 years ago - CCP_Habakuk - Direct link

Unfortunately I am not aware of any way to avoid downloading the Wine client for TQ.

almost 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

Wine will get downloaded like normal for TQ as we’ve not made any changes there.

almost 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

Hi
This is great feedback, but please file a bug report from inside the client. Details in the article: https://www.eveonline.com/news/view/native-mac-client-playtest

Currently, we don’t know what OS version you have, CPU, GPU, client settings, and so on. This makes it almost impossible for us to be able to reproduce, which we really want to do! :slight_smile:

almost 3 years ago - CCP_Habakuk - Direct link

I can confirm that your account exists on Singularity. If you changed your password recently, then it would be good to try your old password.
Unfortunately we are not able to assist with changing the password.

almost 3 years ago - CCP_Habakuk - Direct link

Hmmmm, this is weird then. The current mirror on Singularity is from the middle of February, so it should be using the password, which you had on TQ in February.

edit: Corrected date

almost 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

Hi. The client can not yet be used on Tranquility. However, this public test is the first step for us to get there :slight_smile:

almost 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

Awesome, thanks! I know I’ve said it a few times, but if you get issues, please bug report (F12) from within the client and attach a screenshot. It will include system specs and we can see the problem first hand. Many thanks for the feedback :grinning:

almost 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

Hi
The Native Mac Client should only be downloaded if you select the Singularity test server. It should not be downloaded if you didn’t change from TQ.
The Native Mac Client is only the essentials - binaries and a few gig of content to get you in game. It’s not anywhere near the full client download, unless you have that option turned on in the launcher.
I will certainly check some of the machines we have been testing on though, to see if any have done anything unusual in this regard :slight_smile:

Unfortunately, there is no way to choose between installed clients in the launcher for this test.

almost 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

Hi. Other than ensuring you’re running the latest version of the launcher (1892908) and selecting Singularity with the Launcher on a macOS system, there are no other settings that need to be changed.
Try restarting the launcher and checking for an update.

almost 3 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

Hi all :slight_smile:
We don’t have any announcement for a release date currently. We’re still working through our known defects and bringing the macOS client to be on parity with the Windows client.

I know loads of you used the client and had great results, but unfortunately, there is no way to make that available on TQ. It uses a separate branch (which is why we used a dedicated deployment for Sisi) from the main EVE codebase. There were many core features missing or disabled, even though it may not have been obvious because we patched around them for the test.

I’m happy to share some of the internal stuff we’ve been working on since the last playtest though:

  • We have fixed plenty of graphical issues. I think almost every reported issue has now been fixed, or we are unable to replicate
  • Better resolution handling at fullscreen
  • We have rewrote some of the code that deals with input, so mouse scrolling / touchpads feel much better
  • There is much better GPU handling, which means the client won’t try and take resources from everything - including macOS. Moving between the client and desktop for example is much smoother
  • The stability of the client has been improved and is looking good
  • While not player facing, we have done a lot of work on libraries that power EVE. This includes updating them and changing our build process for them (I’m simplifying a bit here, the actual work is quite involved)
  • An audio pass is taking place, along with some fairly huge audio cleanup work for developers. This should mean audio work is significantly easier for developers, but more importantly reduce the number of audio related issues players experience. Strictly speaking, this isn’t just for the Mac client - but it’s work we had to do to make the macOS client a reality
  • There are some launcher changes which now means the way we install and manage EVE is more in line with other macOS applications
  • I’ve been planning the next playtest, which will also likely include a masstest so we can push the network code. Hopefully this will be in the next few months and we’ll be able to get some awesome feedback from you all again :slight_smile: . I’ll give everyone the heads up with a news article.

Rest assured, I’ll keep everyone in the know with playtests and when we have something more solid for a release. There is still plenty for us to do currently.

I know the current Wine situation can be frustrating - I still play using this method for TQ myself. I want the native client available to everyone as soon as we possibly can :slight_smile:

over 2 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

Hi Folks

As above - development is continuing and will for a while. There isn’t much more I can add at this time.

I’ve been planning the next playtest and hope to get messaging out in the next few weeks. If you want to join in and offer feedback, keep an eye on this thread / the news articles and I will post something as soon as I can.

Cheers!

over 2 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

Updating or changing the Wine version always leads to fallout, so we have to be very careful with it. A jump from our current branch, all the way to 6.1 (which is needed for M1) is big. The initial investigation we did highlighted enough issues that we’ll probably not update Wine before the Native Mac Client is released. It would take a significant amount of people and hours away from the NMC project: Engineers, QA, Launcher changes, etc…and that’s before we have to deal with any new defects a change would cause.

I’m still having some conversations about it internally, so I’m not categorically saying “no”, but it’s not a simple binary swap and everything works better than before, sadly.

over 2 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

Hi all

We have just posted an update about the next playtest + masstest, happening next week: New Mac client playtest | EVE Online

Important: Please ensure you are running the latest launcher version that will be released just before the playtest. You may encounter issues otherwise :grinning:

Some key highlights:

  • We now have a native M1 client. Please note that currently the launcher still requires Rosetta2.
  • Better rendering performance
  • Many graphical bug fixes
  • Various audio fixes
  • Input for mouse + trackpads should be improved
  • Resource handling of the client should be better, allowing switching between EVE and other applications more easily
  • We are testing macOS 10.14 support in this release
  • Many, many bug fixes and back end changes

Some notes:

  • You may need to adjust your graphical settings on the first launch if they are set too high. It is easiest to do this at the character selection screen where there is no 3D environment
  • You may not get the EVE icon when the game is launched and see ‘Exe File’. This will be changed in the future. It does not mean you are running the old Wine client.

I look forward to flying with you in the masstest o7

over 2 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

Hi all

We have just deployed to Sisi. Please make sure you’re running the latest launcher to avoid any issues.

over 2 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

Apologies, we have found an issue with the deployment. This means players will receive the Wine client currently.
We are working to fix this as soon as possible :sweat_smile: :sweat_smile:

over 2 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

The fix should be deployed, but you will need to completely exit and reopen your launcher.

Sorry about that folks!

over 2 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

I’m afraid you just missed it :frowning_face:. We did the mirror as close as possible to the playtest as we could, but there are always going to be accounts that just miss it.

over 2 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

I’ve had a lot of messages about people offering to test it on TQ :grinning:. I really appreciate the enthusiasm that the community has shown around the Native Mac Client. The feedback has been incredibly valuable and has helped us make it a reality. Not only that, but the feedback has been really constructive :+1: Thanks to everyone who has joined any of the tests.

As for being optional on TQ: The current code for the Native Mac Client is separate from the main EVE codebase. This means we can’t just make the client available for TQ in any form, as they are fundamentally incompatible. It’s a purely technical limitation at this stage.

However, we have been working towards bringing the 2 code bases together recently. This will give us a lot more flexibility with where the new client can be deployed and tested next.

The results from this playtest were promising. Once we had deployed our first fix, we saw very good client stability. The vast majority of reports we had would not stop people from playing the game, and even with those issues present, gave a better experience than the current Wine client.
There were some serious ones for sure, which we’re trying to replicate right now. We want the transition to be as sooth as possible for everyone :slight_smile:

I’m afraid there isn’t much I can say about release dates, as we have not set any yet. As for estimates: I don’t want to get hopes up, only for us to find something which will take additional time to fix.

At some point in the future, the code bases for the Windows and Mac clients will be from the same branch and we can deploy again to Sisi. This will then give us the confidence of if we can ship in that release, or if we need to hold it back.

I know that the current Wine client isn’t great ( :sweat_smile: ) on M1 and that the Native Mac Client is a huge step up from it. As a M1 user myself, I want this on TQ. We will get there :slight_smile:

over 2 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

Hi
When did you test the new native client? It has only been available twice for limited time periods. There is not currently an active test for the new native client.

over 2 years ago - CCP_Caffeine - Direct link

Hi all.

Today we launched the Native Client for both Intel and M1 based macOS systems for Tranquility :tada:

A huge thank you to everyone who joined the test server, masstests and gave feedback.

This is the first non-Windows client we have worked on, so feedback is welcome as always.