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Hi, I got the game a little while ago and I've been pretty thoroughly enjoying it so far. I've played ~64hrs in the roughly 2 weeks I've had the game and I'm nearing the endpoint for my first character. (Currently lv 96 running empowered monoliths probably just until I get bored and make a new char, we'll see if I make it to 100 before then.) I've previously played a lot of D3 and PoE and some Grim Dawn, so that's my frame of reference for this, although I've got my pros and cons for each of them. The game does some things a lot better than some of them and that makes me excited to see where they can take this for launch and beyond. I thought I'd post some feedback and see what others think. Totally ready to be told some of these are based on things I've missed from the game, but hopefully some spark some interesting discussion.

I'm splitting the points into 2 broad categories: Design critiques/tweaks and Wish list. Basically the first bit is stuff I think could stand to be fixed/made better to have a solid experience while staying in the bounds of my perception of the design goals and resources available for the games. The wish list is just stuff I think would be cool to see in the game but I don't have a reasonable expectation for seeing implemented any time soon.

Design/UX

  • I'd be nice if the gold and affix pickup process was smoother/more automated. These are things I always want to pick up because they're always useful and don't take up inventory space, but they're not that exciting that I care to look what I got. So I kind of just want to be able to move past them and keep the pace of my game play. Having to awkwardly circle back for gold or try to click on the tiny affix icons isn't that fun.

  • Easier item comparison UI and/or tools. It needs to be easy to tell at a glance if an item is worth your time and attention to do something with. Maybe add the ability to color affixes on the item UI to loot filters. Maybe as a default behavior, add a star or highlight or something to show off T5 affixes on gear.

  • Better search and sorting features for storage. Item management is honestly one of the most frustrating aspects of games like this. ANYTHING that can be done to make it an experience that feels more smooth and puts the user in control is great.

  • UI elements are too fickle to mouse position. I frequently accidentally open or close some menu while trying to craft, vendor, or sort things in the stash.

  • The game does a much better job than most at giving in game explanations for various stats and mechanics, but from my experience there are still a few holes to patch up. Unclear wording, lack of explanations for some secondary abilities and effects, etc.

  • I really like the item system in the game. Fewer, higher quality drops means I actually care enough to look at what drops and because crafting smoothly reduces the distance between the base item and the ideal item, finding better items that aren't quite there yet actually feels good and matters as opposed to something like PoE where anything that isn't already what you need is essentially equivalent to a blank item of the same base for the sake of crafting. The exalts existing as chase items beyond the crafting system is cool too. You definitely don't need them, but they enable your build to keep progressing and for you to get rewarded by actually shock, gasp playing the game instead of mashing chaos/exalts/etc forever. I think there are some small things that can be done to make it better though.

  • Maybe rather than just raising the ceiling for items as you progress in difficulty, the floor should raise as well. I don't really want to get all excited about some high end affixes only to notice they're on some base you could use since the start of the game. Obviously mess with drop rates to compensate, but I just want to actually be unequivocally happy when I see an item with potential. The more noise there is to signal, the more my eyes glaze over when looking at the items I'm getting.

  • I think I'd be cool if exalted gear had an extra property as it's exalted affix rather than just having it be one of the four. Four affixes per item in generally seems kind of low given all of the more mandatory stats you have to juggle like resists. If those are important to the games design/balance, fine, but they kind of make exalted items a bit less cool since often even if I like an exalted stat, the fact that it's taking up a slot on the item I feel like I need for resists, or health, or something really important makes a lot of them less usable/less of an upgrade than I'd like. If the exalted affix were a 5th property, then it's just pure gravy and you can try to get the rest if the item to satisfy the requirements for your build. Obviously this would make them a lot stronger, so you'd have to compensate with droprates, but I think that's fine. Like I said, you really don't need exalted items to make most builds function in even the hardest endgame content at the moment, so they're fine as pure chase items to put the cherry on top of your build at the end and get super hyped about. They don't really need to be that balanced around the normal progression loop because you're expected to get them so late and so infrequently that you should already be able to overcome the main difficulties the game asks of you.

  • Maybe the better question here: How many people like devoting large portions of your gear and build to stats you don't have a choice about like resists? Are these really necessary or adding something to the game? Especially because having the resists as these separate stats doesn't really do much other than add more stuff you have to manage. It's not like you can choose to run content that only presents you with some damage types but not others. You just have to assume you will run into everything, so you have to cap every single different resist, so since they all work the same and have the same target/cap, you just end up with a generic 75% less damage taken but in a really janky and roundabout way. If resists are important maybe just collapse them into 1-2 stats at most? Either just damage reduction or maybe phys and magical? Fewer stats to manage and there's a more distinct difference between them since there's armor to reduce phys damage but not other kinds of damage, so given the right options and balance that could actually make the choice of what you want to invest in more interesting rather than being automatic. Although does the game even need resists? It already has other more interesting damage reduction mechanics like endurance, etc that are more conditional to gameplay situations and build strengths/weaknesses rather than something that's universal across all characters and content.

  • For uniques you get from the end bosses of timelines, maybe just let us craft the affix range rolls or fix them all? As the bosses are right now they're not really interesting or difficult enough to make farming for the perfect roll of the same 1 unique to be that exciting when most of the effort is just trudging through timeline stability to get back to the boss.

  • I think another solution to the above is maybe just making more interesting bosses that scale in difficulty in better ways, but that's more a topic for the wish list.

  • Does the rune that removes a random affix really need to add instability? Like it already costs me a finite resource to use the rune and there's an inherent risk that you will lose one of the affixes you do care about. And if you do lose that affix you care about, you'd need to spend resources and take on risk to craft it back on. The added kick from instability just makes me less likely to want to bother. You really don't get a lot of shots to craft the item without bricking it as it is, so every little extra step that adds instability but doesn't seem as cool as adding an affix I like to the item just doesn't seem worth it. Not sure about the math on this, this is more just a psychological thing.

  • I like SSF. The game currently feels pretty good for playing this way. I know they intend to add multiplayer and trading later. Please don't ruin the SSF experience by balancing the game around trading. Maybe at least make separate leagues or something that have the different balances if you really need the trade economy to be balanced differently? I beg you please don't make the same mistake PoE and launch D3 made. Not when the game currently works well.

  • The UI for gambling is really slow and clunky. When you need to roll a bunch of times to find an acceptable piece of gear to start crafting on, those animations while you wait for your item add up.

  • If I swap one piece of gear with +1 level to X skill with another piece of gear with that exact same property, can the skill not de-allocate my point please?

  • Monolith echo lengths are a) generally too short. b) too variable. I think a slightly longer expected completion time on echos would make things feel a bit better. Less downtime, more time running around with your build. Also, while short echos feel kind of unsatisfying and cause the downtime issue, their existence alongside echos that take a lot longer like finding targets spread out over the map or arena missions makes me kind of irritated when I get the longer ones because the game is just randomly forcing me to work longer for the same rewards and the incentives have set up that little loop in our brains where we crave the next monolith reward, so things which delay that are frustrating. So either a) Lengthen and even out the completion times for echo missions or b) Maybe just get rid of echo bonus rewards as an end of a mission thing? Maybe just have the echos be more likely to drop the thing you would have gotten as a reward for completion? idk. I know how it makes me feel but I'm no psychologist, so not really sure what the best feeling reward scheme would be.

  • Path-finding could use some work. I occasionally get my character stuck on corners and things. It's super important for the game to feel smooth. Which it does for the most part, these are just some edges that should be ironed out.

Wish List

  • More structured/interesting/difficult goals at endgame. Loot is cool, but getting loot just so you can up the numbers and get more loot gets boring at some point. See: D3 (Greater) Rifts. One of the things that enticed me about PoE for so long was the allure of super hard endgame bosses and unique maps that were a challenge to work up to just to achieve for their own sake I kept coming back because I hadn't beat Shaper/Elder, etc yet. The monolith bosses are kind of pushovers and when you go to empowered monoliths they're literally the same bosses with higher numbers. One thought I had was to add some kind of threshold of difficulty modifiers you can stack from the echos, above which the fight moves up a difficulty tier and unlocks new mechanics and phases in addition to whatever numbers increases are necessary. Maybe the currently planned endgame systems address this, but it's something to keep in mind.

  • Related to the above point, I'd love to see some bosses that had some more strategic and gear/build testing mechanics as opposed to more bosses that just have some variation on "don't stand in the fire." I used to really love raiding in World of Warcraft and part of what made that such a fun experience was figuring out how to beat a boss through all sorts of little things like optimizing our builds, gear, making a different strategy, etc. The worst fights were always the "dodge or die" fights because at a certain point a) All of them design-wise are fundamentally the same thing and b) When you can't beat it all you can do is just keep smashing your face at it until people stop dying. When I fail I want to be able to learn from my mistakes and make adjustments. Noting that I should have reacted faster and more precisely isn't really actionable and it can make failure just demoralizing. While there's a place for mechanics like that in other games, I think an RPG should lean more heavily into things that make the player think about their gameplay and want to come back and try something new rather than the face smashing variety of mechanics. Granted there is a difference here compared to MMO raiding. The game is balanced around being able to play solo and with a variety of builds which don't guarantee you'll have access to certain player tools, so you're limited in the kinds of fight mechanics you could design, but with enough creativity and some decisions about what builds should be able to reasonable clear these at the highest difficulties, I'm sure there's a design space there.

  • Similar to the suggestion about making an extra affix on exalted items, maybe it'd be cool to have a super rare crafting item that can turn an item into an exalted one. So as exalts currently are this would randomly bump one affix on the item up to T6 or T7, or if exalts had the bonus property I suggested, it would add a bonus exalted property. Either way, once added it would still be like an exalted item drop, so you couldn't further craft the exalted property. Basically sometimes I already have an item I feel really attached to and such a crafting item would allow me to add progress to that pre-existing item rather than needing to find a whole new one that's all better than what I already have. It'd need to be really really rare to preserve the importance and value of exalted items as dropped chase items, but I think if balanced right this would mostly be a positive experience for the game. The key is just making sure it doesn't feel like a given or necessary.

  • Could we get some actually good looking gear as a gameplay reward? I really don't like that there's going to be a cash shop, even if it's just for cosmetics. Cosmetic rewards are a part of the tools you can use to signal to the player and others that they accomplished something worthwhile and locking all the cool looking stuff behind just pulling out your credit card both reduces that feeling of achievement and cheapens the meaning of the cosmetics themselves. The example I always go back to is from World of Warcraft: Only the best of the best got to ride around on Invincible, but anyone who shelled out $25 could ride around on the sparkle pony which recycled Invincible's model... Kinda lame. Also see PoE where if you don't pay even if you beat the hardest content in the game you look like a hobo wearing buckets and cardboard for armor and if you do pay you can be a lv 1 character running around looking like a gaudy god. So far the gear in this game is just alright, nothing special. That's totally understandable if it's just a resource limitation and we'll maybe see more for 1.0, not so cool if it's because they're holding back anything decent looking to be sold for real money after I already bought the game.

Anyway, that's all that I can think of for now. There may have been more but it's late. Apologies if anything comes off overly harsh. Like I said, the game is looking pretty promising. Props to the team for making something this cool, especially considering how small it started out.

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over 2 years ago - /u/moxjet200 - Direct link

Thank you for taking the time to write this. The quality of life changes you’re suggesting are all things we agree with and will improve after we get some more of the “meat” of the game completed. I believe the vast majority of these suggestions actually exist as backlogged items to get to when we can - so we’re on the same page.

We agree with your assessment of echoes generally being too short and are discussing ways to make those a bit more lengthy by making players want to kill enemies instead of feeling like they’re just running to the objective as fast as possible and we have some other plans to decrease that downtime between them you’ve mentioned, though that plan is probably a bit too early to talk to.

We have a few more things we’re doing with itemization before we take a step back and assess how we feel about the entire picture, but the desire for slightly more depth/chase is heard loud and clear. We’ve known that we’d be adding additional systems for this for quite a while and we’re finally working on it internally now

I’m glad you’re enjoying the game. Lots more good stuff to come!

over 2 years ago - /u/moxjet200 - Direct link

Originally posted by Mael_the_first_Mael

Firstly, I appreciate someone who takes the time to write a well thought out post, so thank you.

I'd like to help address some of your points with what I know or feel:

Design

  1. Gold pickups. Large stashes of gold (from altars) you simply run in a circle around them and it auto grabs them. Running back to grab gold from kills is something I initially did. It's not worth it unless it's super close. Those amounts are normally tiny. Same as selling junk. It's taken me ages to stop grabbing & selling junk from the reward chest (disabling my filter). Again, it's actually insignificant and the time spent costs you more. Took me ages to get out of this habit. Affix pickup. Sometimes this can get annoying, I agree, but the "pick up one,grab all" helps with piles. The devs already stated they don't want it to be as easy to grab as with gold. I can't quote this as it's somewhere in the forums, but can't remember where.

  2. Easy comparisons. You can already do this (without the colours) and you soon become accustomed to checking at a glance the important characteristics. However, most of this is also down to learning the Filter maker properly. It's a wonderful tool imho, and can be as simple or as complicated as you like. My own filters I spend a lot of time on, so that I only see items that could be of interest to my build. So, before even comparing, I know from the colour of the drop what I am looking for in that comparison. Filters can be a matter of using someone else's imported filter, or spending a fair bit of time experimenting to find the best way to create your own that suits you. I do really like the filter system and its capabilities.

  3. Storage. The auto sort maximises the space, but other alternate methods would also be nice, I agree, but I'm not quite sure on what I'd like to see so I'm reluctant to deep dive this one. Searches can already be done on tabs. Tabs only cost gold, so the most efficient method of categorising is to buy more tabs gradually and make your own cataloguing system.

  4. UI elements. I've got used to them, but I do know what you mean. Some sort of simple UI editor for elements would be great for shuffling them into positions that suit each player.

  5. In game explanations... Well, this is the old bugbear of all games. I think LE already do a better job than most with the in game help pages etc, but there's always room for improvement. However, LE is still in Beta and so there's a lot for them to work on. I suspect that this has a low priority, understandably, and probably comes down to manpower/hours available.

  6. Agreed. I like the item system too. What small things would you suggest? The devs are always willing to listen to ideas. The official forums are a better place to post them though. Unlike PoE, they seem to give their own forums more "importance" than Reddit, which personally I think is highly laudable. We've seen what happens when Reddit is given too much importance elsewhere. Don't get me wrong, reddit is great, but imho official forums with registered accounts for a game should ALWAYS take precedence.

  7. Item floors. I think this is done on purpose, for crafting purposes. Some classes of items do have subtle benefits as the items get higher, but it takes knowing your build to recognise those. Plus some builds make better use of T20 items but with middle/lower tier classes due to the prefix/affix and the build requirements. Bear in mind as well that "little/low" numbers in LE have more impact than in games like PoE because the balancing is better here. For just one example +20 health is not a bad stat. That 20 can be a much bigger difference once multipliers take effect. So, 20 might seem a small number compared to a pool of say 1600, but it can make a large end difference. Also, it's worth once again bearing in mind that this is still Beta, and the devs are constantly introducing new things with each patch.

  8. Exalted extra property. I disagree. I think this would have large balance implications, and at the moment balancing is in a great spot. This, in my humble opinion, is where PoE went wrong. There's no need to keep adding new variables/special affixes to affect the balance scale on global items, it makes the overall balance more difficult to manage. The fact that an exalted item can have one or more T6/7 already makes a massive difference in dps or defence or mitigation etc. See my point above for little numbers making big differences. T6-T5 is a big jump, and that's why it's "gated" with exalted items. Now, you can try to remove unwanted spurious affixes from an exalted item (I do it all the time) and occasionally it will give you a wonderful base to try and craft onto, but it's also at a larger risk of fracture, which again I think is fine.

  9. Semi-Mandatory Stats (resistances mentioned). I think that although this can seem a "pain in the a££" it is a requirement. Imagine if your gear just came with 75% as a standard "grey affix" on bases. The game would be a lot more boring imho, and become "easy mode" gaming. Why stop there? Why not have "max health/ max mana/ max armor / max resist" items? You see where I am going with this... I think that having some semi-mandatory stat targets to hit adds a little of the element of "Child Reins" to a game. It's like your parents saying, you have this freedom, but only to a certain extent, if you run off too far you will get in trouble... This is one example where game devs know best, I think, and prevent our BiS greed a little for our own good.

  10. Uniques... Ah, this one is very complex. You've touched on a number of issues that are discussed a LOT in the forums. First, being able to craft/fix uniques & their rolls. I'd have to disagree on a general basis, but I do understand the concept of utilising "Blessed" rolls on uniques in PoE. I don't know about that one tbh. I'd almost prefer the current "drop fixed" version. Some uniques that you may not have come across yet are super powerful, and indeed make up 80% of an entire build. To be able to then min/max those? I simply don't know. Second, the mono "grind" to farm bosses. Well, this has a lot of people with polarised views. IF you leave your empowered mono as long as you can without resetting it then you can do +50 instances to get back to the boss quite quickly. If you feel or are forced into a "reset" then it does take longer to expand the web. I'm not sure where I stand on this one. I'm pretty good at expanding and leaving my webs when boss farming, but I do find myself getting annoyed sometimes at farm attempt #11 in a day at having to grab those 750+ points all over again. However, would I feel more satisfied if I could just run the boss over and over again? I somehow don't feel that would enrich my game playing either. It's a tough one to call if we're being truly honest with ourselves. Boss scaling is another large kettle of fish. I'd rather not touch that one (my fingers already ache).

  11. Removal instability. Again, discussed at length in the forums. Personally, I think the system is fine. The extreme alternative is "easy mode", but again only my opinion. There are many discussions on this in the forums. I would really, really, suggest you use the official forums rather than here. A lot of what you discuss in your post is already in discussion there. Again, this is not PoE, the LE forums are used a lot and are a good place to theorise/chat.

  12. SSF/Trading. SSF, I completely agree. I also completely agree trading does some bad things in games. Once again though, on the topic of trading, the forums are the best spot. There are a lot of recent threads underway on trading. I know, I frequent them :) My opinions on it are in there and to be honest I don't want to break my fingers retyping it all.

  13. Gambling UI. I agree, it is clunky. I think that some of that is by design though. It's an "added feature" rather than a daily exercise. I don't think the devs want you spending all your time gambling. The animations though, I do also agree on. They drive me mad too when I am looking for a crafting base.

  14. +1 de-allocation. Yes, it can be annoying. Agreed. However, I don't think it's all that easy for them to do with the current skill system. Without it though if you swapped out a +2 Helm for a +1 Helm, there would be bigger problems. Remember, you're not actually "swapping" anything in terms of the database, you are unequipping and then equipping an item.

  15. Monolith Echo lengths too short. This conflicts with 10. your point on uniques. With the current system, making echoes significantly longer would make blessing/unique/boss farming excruciatingly more painful. I understand your "stay in maps longer" theory but you couldn't change one without changing the other system.

  16. Path finding. Yes, the game is still in Beta. When you discover these, I am sure the devs would appreciate every report finding them so that they can fix them. It's not as massive a team as some other games, so we the players can also help out where we can to assist them. I feel this way personally with a small team of devs, I have to say that some other games that simply use the "Beta" flag as an excuse for never finishing (with massive dev teams) I do not feel the same way about.

Having destroyed my fingers now, I won't comment on your wish list. In fact, I wouldn't anyway. Your list is your own, and it's not down to me to interfere.

In closing, thanks again for your list. I would recommend that perhaps you copy/paste it into the official forums. I think you'll find more discussion on it there.

Thanks for fostering good discussion in the community, Mael!

over 2 years ago - /u/moxjet200 - Direct link

Originally posted by Mael_the_first_Mael

No probs. I try and be fairly active in the forums as well. I remember back in the earlier days when that other aprg also had good forums & reddit with great discussions and polite, good tempered debate.

So, I think it is especially important to participate and encourage in that type of discussion and support, even if occasionally it is to critique and provide constructive criticism. Everyone at LE is to be congratulated thus far on what they have provided and continue to strive to provide both in game and also in communication.

Hopefully, with the current levels of participation we can continue to keep it all civil for quite a while yet. It's very important that tools like the forums & reddit remain a useful tool for existing players, devs, new players, & people interested in getting LE. IMHO, as long as we learn the lessons from "elsewhere" and prevent them from becoming toxic then they can continue to be a valuable resource. Moderation by all is needed, so that any potential incoming trolls are shut down asap.

I’m hoping that by having our development team more involved personally in community engagement and making sure that community feedback is very frequently discussed and acted upon we can keep the great community discourse we have for a long time to come. I’m sure it will be more challenging as the game becomes more popular but the entirety of EHG will continue to make the community and their feedback a top priority. We were all big ARPG players on the other side of the coin not too long ago!