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Sorry, but monoliths are still not fun.

In the LE development timeline they have other endgame systems in mind, so maybe this is not such a big deal. For all I know, monoliths aren't even the main attraction they have planned.

LE is early access, yes. But this patch was focused on monoliths being awesome, so I think constructive criticism is reasonable at this point.

LE remains super fun early and mid game.

On to monos-

"Run to the end and kill the thing" is still the mantra. It is definitely better to have this web of maps than 2 choices each time, but it hardly changes the reality of running these same maps over and over. Within an hour of playing this new system I was running to find the same target twice in one sitting, on the same old necro map, following the same path we have all memorized by now.

The greatest difference the new map system offers is the alternative trials like the pseudo-arena, or Orobyss. The main reason why is that they give you a break from the mind-numbing map running. That in itself is best reward. Orobyss particularly pays off because you get to actually have a fun fight and he gives you so much stability that it saves you from running about 3 more boring maps!

They encourage leaving Orobyss fights until you are significantly far from the origin of the web, but you find yourself wondering if some measly few points of corruption (when your empowered base is already 100), is actually worth running so many extra maps, or whether you should just take the first Orobyss you can find so you can skip as many maps as possible to finally get the stability you need for the chapter 3 fight -> Blessing.

The 1350 stability required to reach chapter 3 is far too much. Seriously. Who wants to run ~50 maps in the condition they are in today? For one roll at one blessing? I'm actually surprised they put the tradeoff with Orobyss in there (subtracts vs adds corruption based on origin distance), because it forces the players to think about how much they hate running the maps in their decision about whether or not they want to add corruption. Corruption which, as far as anyone can tell, does ????? for your drop rate.

It's like the developers are saying, yeah we know you hate this, but how much do you hate it? If you push through and don't skip it, maybe you can have a little extra shiny drops... maybe.

If LE wants to incentivize us to run extra maps at this point they need to offer a really really big carrot. Not 3 corruption points that do who knows what. Otherwise all anyone wants is to get to the final boss fight for drops and blessings. And the repetitive mapping en route is just a god awful chore which we will take any route to minimize.

The changes to minions are excellent.

Compliment sandwich!

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over 3 years ago - /u/moxjet200 - Direct link

Don’t worry, we have more types of content planned for the monolith and individual echoes. This patch and system update gives us a very solid foundation to build on as a primary end game system.

For someone that has evaluated the system and come to this conclusion, I’m curious if there are different objectives or content types that you know you’d like to see as we expand it. If not, that’s completely ok of course. We have our own ideas that will make their way in for future updates.

Thanks for the honest feedback.

over 3 years ago - /u/moxjet200 - Direct link

Originally posted by DaDa462

Moxjet, I wanted to give your invitation real thought overnight.

Someone else here pointed out the opportunity to tie rewards to kill count. That technically already exists in the chest we open after a monolith, but it could be made more substantial. As it stands, I'd certainly rather clear maps quicker than get a little extra juice in one chest.

I thought about other games that are essentially map repetition, and what makes some have much greater playtime-longevity than others. I think these two features are important:

- Have near-term goals as well as long-term goals (blessings)

- Have randomized side-quests / mini-games / puzzles, etc. in monoliths that keep things interesting with useful rewards

I'm not advocating a PoE clone but there are good ideas out there to tweak. We could say the monolith web is delve-inspired in itself.

Spitballing examples:

A monolith web mechanic where you get a special reward for completing 3 randomized targets on the web. (near term goal)

A monolith web mechanic where you get credit for monolith completions if you encircle a region in completion, completion is given for all monos inside the circle. This would need more cross-connections compared to the existing exponential web form. (near term goal)

You want to keep the player engaged in near-term structures like this if your intention is to leave blessings as such a long-term target.

Randomized challenges within monos are going to be critical to make them fun and not identical repetition. Maybe make this challenge unlock based on map % completion, so people care about killing mobs? We know what mini-games PoE offers in this department, and I think there are endless other ideas your guys can come up with. I would say that this game leaves boss fights way too far apart. Make some fun mini bosses part of the challenge and people would be happy for that alone. Orobyss did a good job in this department, players want more of that.

Rewards for random challenges could include crafting perks. Maybe it summons a forge which removes the destructive % for one craft, as an example. Or increases the odds of a critical success craft. Or just bonus monolith stability. Or decrease the negative modifiers of the next monolith you run by half, etc.

These are rough ideas but I think they convey the ideas. Endgame sustainability needs random map challenges for entertainment, and short-term goals to work towards on the way to long-term web completion.

Thanks for your consideration, you guys are doing a great job. Endgame just needs some more love.

I agree with the vast majority of replies from those of you that posted below my initial response. A couple issues that we believe we need to address sooner than later is feeling like you're following indicators from the start of a lot of monoliths, more variety in objective and starting locations, and more locations in general which will come with more development time.

We've also have many more bosses and mini-bosses coming. I completely agree these are necessary. They just take a bit more time to develop.

As we get closer to 1.0 I think we'll have this in a good spot. And of course, 1.0 is just kickoff.

Again, thank you and the others for the constructive criticisms and taking your time to make thoughtful posts like this.