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over 4 years ago - /u/RiotKingCobra - Direct link

Originally posted by Spideraxe30

Maybe /u/RiotKingCobra can share some context on the Swain change as the balance team's resident Swain main

Already tweeted this, but I'll also post here: His ult on live is currently converting only 37.5%. Given his relatively balanced state, we decided to modify his tooltip to be accurate rather than change it to actually be 75%.

TLDR: His ult has been bugged this whole time and the tooltip was lying. Since he's relatively balanced we just updated the tooltip to reflect what the ult was actually doing.

over 4 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by Crumplesnitches

Why would you consider Swain to be in a balanced state when his Q is so ineffective he's been benched down to tier 3 support?

Because he's actually strong is all three farming lanes.

Just because people think he's a support doesn't mean he is one. Top, Mid, and Bot all have higher win rates.

over 4 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by Dopp3lg4ng3r

can you not spread lies?

You rely on datas which has less than 1% and even more often than not less than 0.5% (!) playrate and then claim he's strong in there when he's literally having close to no games in these 3 whatsoever:

https://u.gg/lol/champions/swain/build?role=top (0.4% pr with 48% wr)

https://u.gg/lol/champions/swain/build?role=middle (0.8% pr with 52% wr)

https://u.gg/lol/champions/swain/build?role=adc (0.1% pr with 55% wr)

now to diamond :

https://u.gg/lol/champions/swain/build?role=top&rank=diamond_plus (0.3% pr with 53% wr) https://u.gg/lol/champions/swain/build?role=middle&rank=diamond_plus (0.6% pr with 53% wr) https://u.gg/lol/champions/swain/build?role=adc&rank=diamond_plus (0.1% pr with 55%)

the sample size in each and everyone of these role in plat and diamond literally put a hole in your claim that he's strong at these 3 when it is completely fallacious the moment you factor in the fact there are literally no games registered about swain in these roles, and the only one above 500 sample size game is his midlane plat winrate which is only 52%. For a champion supposed to be a onetrick champion it's totally pathetic.

https://lolalytics.com/lol/swain/?lane=support also supports u.gg's high winrate claim.

Couple thousand games for each role. Internal data also has his him as a top performer in Mid/Bot. Pickrate is irrelevant. Sample size is what matters. The sample is large enough to be confident in his performance.

Again, see the first comment I made. Just because people think it's true doesn't mean it is true. There's lots of people who think vaccines are a larger risk than measles. Evidence shows us the opposite is true. Don't be one of those people. Swain is a winning champion.

over 4 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by Lavoisier21

Absolute joke (in poor taste).

Do you reckon that the fact that he as a sub 1% play rate in solo lanes in every server after the latest mini rework is MAYBE a sign that, despite whatever win rate stats you conjure up, he feels like ass to play?

Getting out shoved by every other champion in the game and having to farm under tower with mage auto attacks is not exactly a fun experience. All that in return for being a mediocre champion mid and late game.

Listen to your playerbase for once. Nobody who played Swain top or mid is satisfied with it, that's why people abandoned him.

By the way, you people always complaing that you can't speak to us without the conversation turning uncivil, yet here you are comparing us to anti-vaxxers because we see fault in your horribly flawed argument.

Then that's a different conversation and one I'm totally down for having. I agree Swain is quite unpopular. That's something worth tackling and should happen.

That is a different discussion from "Swain is [not] strong." And again, the point still stands that he wins. If all he did was last hit pitifully under turret and then become mediocre in mid game he wouldn't win 53% of his games in mid lane.

over 4 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by Dopp3lg4ng3r

ok it's time for you to start having actual reflexion abilities rather than repeating the storyboard KC told you to write down every single time.

He wins 53% of his games with only mains playing him. ONLY MAINS.

Other champions do not have that exact same problem because most of the strong picks in midlane get to have good overall winrate and excessively good winrates on MAINS.

This tasteless and short-minded logic is literally plaguing this game for several seasons and you guys are actually insanely oblivious if you in your right mind, think he's sensibly equal to assassins/syndra/diana and all actual powerpicks in midlane

Hey, so I was interested in your claim about only mains playing him and while this data isn't perfect, let's get into it:

First off, no one's telling me what to write. I'm interested in performance data in general and I had some free time, so I'm talking about what I've got available.

Second, you're wrong about the mastery/power kind of stuff. We'll take Yasuo for example. He has the single highest score for "average games of experience when you see this champion." The mean games of experience on Yasuo is over 100. Now, sure, that technically means you may face nine first-time players for every 1000-game main, as is the nature of using mean as the measurement, but this tends to work pretty well overall. Yasuo has on average 100 games under his belt when he gets played. He has a 49% win rate in solo queue. Katarina is 2nd place. She has 53%, the same as Swain. Zyra is #3. She's at 52%.

What this means is that overall, the mastery rate more or less has to be taken into account. Essentially Yasuo is numerically maybe the weakest champion in the game but so many players are so good at him that he performs fine. To me, this is the right way to balance the game. Otherwise, everyone has to ban Yasuo every game because you're against him every game and everyone's an expert and they're slaying. Thankfully for Katarina and Zyra, they're not terribly popular overall and can get away with high win rates (IMO Swain actually falls into this, too).

Third, let's circle back to Swain. This is where there's a deserved large asterisk: I don't have reliable data from the last six months. My Swain data is from before the most recent remaster. But at that point in time, Swain had an average experience rate below about 65% of other champions, at around 40 games played.

We can at least test for how much this tends to change over time. So for example, I can measure Yasuo game experience from back in 2015 (1.5 years after release) compared to 2019. Overall experience rate doesn't actually shift very much (99 vs 107). I'm making the assumption that this remains relatively true for Swain as well. You don't have to believe this assumption, but I think it's likely accurate.

Finally, we can actually measure Swain pickrate. At a certain point this gets buoyed by support Swain, but here's the graph: https://imgur.com/6JesmTo

Swain is overall about twice as popular post-remaster. His playrate was declining up until it hit and has steadily climbed week over week after the initial hype falloff.

None of this is to say your experience is invalid. Personally I like playing Swain still occasionally. He's my go-to mage bot and one of my go-to midlaners as well. But I'm sorry if you're having less fun with him.

over 4 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by GLGMisclick

How a champion with a pickrate in solo lanes below 1% can be considered even a viable solo laner. Of course he can have high winrate in top and mid when the sample size in diamond+ is around below 200 and. Sorry, can't agree with that argument, unless internal riot data shows way higher sample size at higher mmr to prove that swain is actually not just support, and only being semi viable in solo lanes only in hands of die-hard fanbase.

Checked Riot internal data. Looked at both 10.1 and 10.2 separately. Also looked across every MMR band that's worth measuring.

Across all cross-sections he is 50%+ at every MMR bracket in Mid/Bot. (caveat: measuring GM+ is fraudulent because sample size is too low, so that bracket is unusable)

Swain winrate generally decreases slightly with MMR and still ends up above 50% in his two best roles (neither are Support) at every MMR for the last month, including D1+

I'm looking for every source of data I can and honestly cannot find anything to suggest Swain is weak here. You'd have to cherry-pick to find anything sub-50.

To be clear, if the sample size was too small, you'd see wild swings in winrate going patch-to-patch. That only happens in GM+. Everywhere else the deviation is pretty moderate. Even with patch-to-patch variance, they ALL clock in above 50%.

over 4 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by Kein_Narr

I'm looking for every source of data I can and honestly cannot find anything to suggest Swain is weak here. You'd have to cherry-pick to find anything sub-50.

And then you say in another post:

Third, let's circle back to Swain. This is where there's a deserved large asterisk: I don't have reliable data from the last six months. My Swain data is from before the most recent remaster.

Lol.

Just lol.

That's specifically the games-on-champion data. Win rates, as you could have read from literally the sentence above, are from 10.1 and 10.2

over 4 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by RuneKatashima

Question that's somewhat related. How does your second and third paragraph relate to Riven? It's been colloquially understood that she is played largely by mains and that has also made her high winrate "okay".

Does data support this? Is it okay?

She's top 10 in the metric.

Interestingly, so are Nami and Sona.