Original Post — Direct link

Riot Truexy tweeted:

Couple mage thoughts (1/5): HP was added to mage items in Season 12 as a "pseudo-durabiity" patch to mages. The goal was to give squishy immobile mages breathing room to make a mistake vs assassins without getting one-shot and immediately losing the lane

This was at a time when lane lethality was extremely high. Frankly, we taxed the AP on these two items, to the point where both the fantasy of high AP numbers and functional damage is/was below the bar. When the durability update in 12.10 hit, the problem was pushed even farther

The mana to poke balance is something that is something that's always on a knife's edge. If mana is too inefficient to cast on champs, mages default to pushing the wave and scaling, if mana is TOO plentiful, the exact same thing happens.

While small item buffs (tbh alternator and even lost chapter could be undertuned) help. The big debate is what mages and mage subclasses need to do to feel special and exciting in modern league. If everyone can push fast, have CC, and burst, when/what should mages excel at?

Obviously this gets even harder when we look at all the different classes of immobile mages. Zoe has drastically different needs to feel fun and exciting than Veigar. And right now they're all funneled into "mana burst mythic into zhonyas + rabadons". And that's sadge (5/5).

Not really any direction provided here, but just some open thoughts about what the teams been thinking and discussion to hopefully get mages in a better place as soon as possible (6/5 lmao).

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about 1 year ago - /u/TheTruexy - Direct link

Originally posted by Yami_No_Kokoro

Or they have a completely inaccurate read on either the actual issues involved or what is or isn't optimal or typical of the class involved. The fact he unironically said "and right now they're all funneled into mana burst mythic into zhonyas + rabadons" gives me zero faith any changes or adjustments will be handled well. Practically no "stereotypical" mages go Zhonya's second, and practically no one who is trying to win goes Deathcap third because it's horrible (most expensive item in the game with no notably spiky components and either breaks even or outright loses to Void or Shadowflame third, which are also blatantly cheaper).

This is where twitter brevity is bad.

That build SUCKS as you'll have no haste and be stuck on bad backs for most of the game.

The main point is that Mages need to build damage to be relevant. But will eventually need both Pen and some defensive (usually zhonya's) to be relevant lategame. This funnels your build extremely quickly into the same items every game. That's not bad if the items are exciting and different from champ to champ. Currently, that's not the case as most mages items say "AP statstick and generic damage up" without much deviation.

about 1 year ago - /u/RiotRayYonggi - Direct link

Originally posted by TheFeelingWhen

Honestly the problem with mages is that they are the only group of champions that didn't really get anything new with the item rework. People talk about reaching 1k AP but honestly in season 10 I'm pretty sure that was as hard to do as it is now. IIRC most people just skipped Deathcap because Void was always more damage and Liandrys was giga broken as a second item on basically any champ.

So mages kinda went from building Ludens into Liandrys/Void/Zhonyas, to building Ludens/Liandrys into Void/Zhonyas/Shadowflame. With archangels becoming popular on a lot of them during season 10, and I'm pretty sure any champ that could stack a tear item was building them in general.

I can get that people find mages unsatisfying but with how broad the class is I don't really feel like there is something that is safe to change. Changing anything could lead to half the champs either being unplayable or broken as f**k.

I believe I saw a twitter comment that said, paraphrased:

"Mage items have problems, they are just generic stat sticks. They don't do anything special

Mages should always be able to reach 1000 AP."

This basically summarizes the mage item problem. Mage items are literally not weak currently, and if they are it's by 10-20 AP maximum. We are still a far cry from the "1000 AP dream" that players quote, but in the case that 1000 AP was attainable, you would have to sacrifice luden/liandries effects, void staff pen, seraphs shield, and zhonya stasis to get there without just power creeping the system. While I think some players would gladly make that trade, 1000 AP doesn't come alongside a bunch of interesting effects.

Finding the balance here is correct. How do you balance a class to have fun and interesting items 1-3 and can also balloon into 1000 AP insta-kill casters at 6 items? As evidence of mages sitting at high win-rates and pick-rates fairly permanently (hello Anivia Viktor Syndra etc), they aren't necessarily weak, they are just unsatisfying. But there's a lot of misalignment (especially among the playerbase) about which direction they want more. More AP or more cool effects to play around?

I do think a potential avenue for some gains, as highlighted by Truexy, is removing HP from some of the items and funneling that back into AP now that durability update is out, but even then some players don't want to be even squishier than they are now on their average builds. It's a tough space without a clear direction that improves the experience for the average player.