Original Post — Direct link

Mogwai has released several videos in the last few days about the meta, patch, etc. In all of these, but especially his latest, he has gone after the people in the community who have criticized him and others for frequently complaining about the metagame. He's claimed in his latest video that this is in actuality the more positive approach.

We got things to change... I would much rather be a whiner than be a false-positive Andy

Thing is, Mogwai's right. Riot themselves have said they make changes in their approach based off of our feedback, and those of us who care about this game should voice our concerns if we don't want Runeterra to end up with the same problems as other cardgames like Hearthstone. Unfortunately, I think that he has been unintentionally encouraging less-than-positive behavior from players in his following that fail to make the distinction between constructive criticism and nugatory whining and that is going to continue to create more toxicity in this game community.

First, let's start with some distinctions. It should be said that there is, in fact, a difference between constructive criticism and nugatory whining. Constructive criticism aims to identify problems and potential solutions to said problems. Nugatory whining is just that: complaints that serve no purpose other than to complain, and whose 'solutions' are usually just mega-nerfs to cards or archtypes that they don't like.

CC Examples: "Fiora-Shen is currently too oppresive, perhaps if fiora lost some durability she would be slightly easier to deal with in the mid game", "Aphelios generates too much value even if you kill him, maybe if his weapons cost more, it would slow him down slightly", "Azir and Marshal provide too much value and are too difficult to remove, perhaps if they were easier to remove, they wouldn't be as much of an issue".

NW Examples: "I'm a silver player who doesn't know how to play against Fiora so I think she should be removed from the game", "I hate Aphelios weapons, he should only make 1/game", "Blade Dance should only work when you have the Attack Token, rendering a third of Azirelia's cards useless every other turn"

When Mogwai says things like : "Everybody who whined and complained about the meta... good for you(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZJtjo_9pAY&t=432s)" he is not just encouraging constructive criticism, but everyone who complained, and I personally do not want to empower or validate those who fill the conversations with so much useless noise that its harder for us to solve issues in the first place. I can't imagine how challenging it must be for riot to go through community feedback when more than half of it is 'remove this card from the game', 'make irellia an allegiance card or I quit', 'riot's a bunch of dum dums who don't know what they're doing', etc. So yes encourage others to make their opinions heard but encourage critiques to be well thought out and positive, not just sh*ting on things you don't like.

Mogwai has also lashed out a lot at those who have criticized him and others for 'complaining about everything'. But silencing these people has a similar effect to silencing those who are speaking out about issues in the game. You see, not everyone can be lumped into the category of 'whinning Timmy' and 'false-positive Andy'. There is another category of player, one who I would name the 'logical Chadwin'. This player does criticize Riot when they think there's an issue, but not before being patient and waiting for more information, instead of jumping to conclusions and hating things they lose to. And unlike false-positive Andy who tries to hush out all the negative so that they don't have to hear any of it, Chadwin supports other players' critique u n l e s s that player is spreading useless negativity that serves no positive purpose, then logical Chadwin challenges the person making his games' community objectively worse. When Mogwai 'calls out' all of those players criticizing the complainers, he is including the Chadwins, who are actively filtering out the useless toxicity in the game. You're doing the lord's work Chadwins, don't let Mogwai or anyone else convince you otherwise.

Finally, lets just talk for a moment about an attitude that I think is problematic: This pompous attitude that 'I, the player, know what's better for the game than riot does'. Lets be real for a sec, most of us just make shots in the dark about balance changes we might want to see, and never have to suffer any negative consequences for our bad ideas because we're not the ones making the actual changes. Developing a game around an actively evolving meta is hard and even our developers aren't perfect and yes, will make mistakes. But they are game developers by career choice with lots of experience (Yes, I know, 200 years kekw) have probably more data on the game than even mobablytics does, and also know what's going to be coming in the future, so I think its fairly safe to say they are the best equipped out of all of us when it comes to balancing this game. Our feedback should be aimed to try to help them, not do their jobs for them. You can listen to Mogwai talk about Riot Dovagedys here(https://youtu.be/qZJtjo_9pAY?t=201) and sort of see what I mean. The post Mog refers to was one where Dovagedys commented on another's redditor's post about how there's examples in the past at how focussing on buffs can sometimes have little impact, and imho Mogwai really overreacted to what he said. And then Mogwai stated that this new Riot Reddit post was Riot doing a 180 on their opinions, when it really wasn't. Even Mog's entire, "It would be unproductive to criticize Riot on realizing how wrong they really were" attitude just comes from such a 'better than thou' place thats just really hard to watch(unless you're in the same headspace). Lets just work with our devs, voice our concerns when they come up, and work together on this, instead of making this game community like League of Legends where every bronzy thinks they could make a better game.

In conclusion, I am (currently) less concerned with Mogwai himself, and more concerned with the toxic portion of his viewer base who he is constantly and consistently now empowering in his videos. I don't think Mogwai is doing this intentionally, I think he takes a lot of these critiques very personally and applies them to just how he behaves, and doesn't always consider the different interpretations of his videos that other viewers might have. Nevertheless, I think its a problem that we need to speak up about. In the same way that we should voice our concerns to Riot for the betterment of the game, I think we should voice our concerns to Mogwai as well as other influencers for the betterment of the community.

Lastly, some answers to common responses below:

You're just a Mogwai hater trying to trash my guy Mog. Why you do this?

I...literally said Mogwai was right in like the fifth sentence. Did you even read this? I like Mogwai as a creative deckbuilder, I just think he's doing some unintentional damage, hence the title.

If you don't like Mogwai then just don't watch Mogwai

Again, this isn't about whether or not I like Mogwai. Overall I enjoy his content. I just think he's encouraging some of the worst in our community and not just those who want the game to be better and somebody needs to say it.

You can't blame Mogwai for any of this. He's Spanish after all, there's fire in his blood

I will only say this once. Under any circumstances involving anything at all, no one's background is an excuse for their behavior. No one can change where they're from. Everyone can change how they behave.

Godwai UwU

(⌐▀͡ ̯ʖ▀)=/̵͇̿̿/'̿'̿̿̿ ̿ ̿̿ ⊂(゜Д゜⊂

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14 days ago - /u/Dovagedys - Direct link

We listen to constructive and healthy feedback.

We do not react or make change from threats, hyperbole, sensationalism, any negativity toward specific people (streamer or otherwise), and any other messages that are not constructive.

There are times when complaining about issues is helpful. I completely disagree with the generality that, "see! complaining constantly works." Sometimes it will work and sometimes it won't. Being constructive, kind, and communicating clearly increases the chances of having a positive outcome.

Streamers' job is to entertain. Sometimes it is entertaining to be negative, hyperbolic, sensational, etc. And there is an audience out there that enjoys that kind of content. However, whenever a streamer (just like any other player) chooses to communicate that way, then it's very likely that their overall message is lost or ignored.

Negativity, broad generalizations, attacks on people, assuming all players share the same point, arguing in bad faith, taking quotes out of context, etc are all a quick way to have us ignore a stream, post, or comment.

As a specific example, many posts on this sub assume that everyone hates Irelia/Azir or only play it because it is powerful and that is simply not true. There is a large number of players that love the play pattern, because it is fun.

I think it's also important to keep in mind that in general, happy humans don't post as often as unhappy humans. We are lucky in our community that there are so many happy and positive posts. However, seeing a high frequency of critical posts is not clear evidence that everyone feels the same way.

We want to make Legends of Runeterra the best game it can be for all players. There are many different motivations, play styles, and personalities among our community. Sometimes we will make decisions a specific group doesn't like, but that doesn't mean those decisions are objectively wrong or bad. As a game team, we have to find a balance. As a community, I think it's helpful to keep everyone in mind and understand that feeling strongly or having a popular streamer say a certain thing does not mean all players agree.

Finally, I'd like to say that I think inciting complaining, rabblerousing, or any other kind of mob mentality is irresponsible.

We are always listening and working to respond to your feedback. Increasing the level of complaining likely only increases the noise, which makes it hard for us to discover the core issue.

Constructive, thoughtful criticism is helpful and we love it. It helps us make the game better.

Positivity is the path.

<3

14 days ago - /u/Dovagedys - Direct link

Originally posted by RuiGomesPT

Look, the playerbase doesn't have the power to directly "fix things", with or without constructive criticism.

The one power that we as a community do have is to make so much noise that the things that annoy us actually see some changes.

It doesn't matter if you write a single thread with 10 paragraphs about why Dunekeeper is busted. It'll just get buried under other stuff that had much less effort put into.

However, if 10 different people make 10 different threads about Dunekeeper being busted, even if all of them get just enough content not to be considered baseless rants, then it starts drawing just enough people in to become some sort of trend.

It's honestly pretty similar to a protest in some way. You can't just pass laws by yourself, and if you were to send a formal letter to the prime minister/president of wherever you live with reforms, you'll literally just get ignored. However, if you get 10 people to start a dumpster fire, you might get local police attention, and if 100 people see you and follow suit, then they too get police attention, then it gets to thousands, tens of thousands, etc. It eventually becomes an issue to large to ignore, and the ones with power to actually change things are forced to compromise.

And this is just a cycle, because people will just find the next best thing to complain about afterwards, but it will buy you time until the next person starts their own dumpster fire.


What you call "toxicity" is infact, the very foundations of a protest. Yeah, it gets spammy, but that just so happens to be the best way to get your point across.

And yeah, negative comments are always way more prevalent than positive ones, not just because people are passionate about a product they like but because if everything is fine, then there's no reason to praise the product, as everyone you'd be discussing this with already knows its great anyway, but if shit is on fire, then people do feel the need to bring awareness to said fire until said fire is put out.


If Riot had some other way for the playerbase to influence the balance, without requiring countless threads bitching about the same subject, then people would not bitch about said subject.

Like, if Riot had a montly poll where every single active player gets to pick 15 cards to buff and 15 cards to nerf out of the entire card poll, and then in the following month, those 30 cards are guaranteed to get some meaningful changes, then people will stop complaining about it so often, and instead will just dogpile on nerfs for whatever are the strongest decks at the time, and buffs for the archetypes they personally like. It sounds like a ridiculous idea and it is, but it would stop all the complaining about balancing overnight, because now people can just vote for what they would not like to see.

We do surveys constantly and at different frequencies for different purposes to try and learn as much as we can. For balance and card specific information, we do surveys every month, as well as surveys after each time we release new content.

14 days ago - /u/Dovagedys - Direct link

Originally posted by Papapoopoopee

Thanks for the clarification. I know I'm kind of a hypocrite for adding into this loop of players not liking each other's attitude, and I of course, have no problem with others having conflicting opinions than my own, I just have seen other game communities fall to the vocal part of the playerbase letting out their worse selves and don't want to see that happen here.

But you're right, I can't just assume that widespread negativity online means that that is the general face of the playerbase. I shall attempt to be more open minded and leave the community work to the professionals

Man, sometimes I envy the patience you and your team seem to possess. Glad to have you guys behind the steering wheel. <3

I think calling out negative behavior can be useful in helping us keep the amazing community we have built together.

Don't be hard on yourself.

<3






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