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0s really important question here probably
2s the one that most people are wondering
3s story and trials what is the reason for
5s not making solo trials replayable it's
8s easy content the soul trials are very
10s well done and it's a shame you can only
11s play it once make it a daily with
13s difficulty scaling giving increase
15s increasingly more rewards that's exactly
17s the type of content that people have
18s been asking
20s for explain this rationale like what
22s what in the world is going through our
23s minds that we don't make these
27s [Applause]
29s replayable
33s hello everybody Welcome to forged and
35s eternum the show where we talk about All
38s Things New World I am Rob Chesney and uh
41s I'm joined by Krishna and Lula and uh
45s today we're talking about uh story
48s inance we're talking about where Story
49s meets combat because uh as anybody who's
52s been playing the game a lot certainly um
54s not since launch but in the in the year
56s sense we've added a lot of soul trials
59s um instances where the play gets like a
61s heavy dose of story and an awesome fight
63s at the same time um and we've had a lot
65s of fun making these so we wanted to talk
67s about them today um the uh I'll start
71s Krishna because you've been working on
72s these since the very beginning
74s um what you know the very first one we
77s talked about is when we were building
78s Brimstone Sands what do you remember
80s from that time and like what you know
82s what was our thinking around why we
84s wanted to create
85s these uh Brimstone Sands was in a way a
90s very different approach to how the game
93s came out like once Brimstone stands came
96s out we thought of it as a new standard
98s for us with the storyline like players
100s enjoyed the whole Imhotep storyline and
103s which eventually led to the our first
105s ever Soul Child with apus so that was
109s indeed an interesting one so with and
112s that was around the same time your side
114s started working on revamping the whole
116s story line for solo players to you know
119s start doing quests in their own terms
122s and like not necessarily depend on other
126s players like I get that this is an MMO
129s that we need five different players to
131s you know do bosses and things but why
134s not let one player have all the fun so
137s that's where Soul trials came in and
139s that's what your side has been helping
141s us with you know designing bosses meant
144s just for solo players to have cool fun
147s and so with that in mind how about we
150s take it to our first soulart in the msq
154s which is brother Umberto in brawood yes
158s yeah that's a good one that the one you
159s worked on so that that one um of course
161s is a really interesting one because this
163s is the part of the story where the
165s player has come to Brightwood um looking
167s for this guy named brotherr andto who
169s once helped the soul wardens and in so
171s doing they find out that he was part of
173s the leadership of the bright vigil and
174s he eventually fell to being lost after
177s cursing actually he didn't fall to
178s becoming lost he uh caused everybody
181s else in Brightwood to become lost um and
185s I was kind of the architect of that in a
186s very dark way and players ultimately
188s have to sort of um you fight him and
191s destroy him to to to remove the curse on
193s the fort of keron so that was kind of
195s the narrative conceit of what we wanted
196s to create and then we handed that to you
199s and we're like hey make an awesome fight
200s out of this what uh what was where did
203s you start for that okay so back when you
207s presented this idea to me uh it I was
211s primarily working this idea with the
213s quest designer on your team Sean he I
216s used to keep poking him questions about
218s why is Umberto doing this like what's
220s his interest in the lost like what what
223s is he trying to do with that heart Gem
225s of his so using that uh I pitched up a
229s fight you know make him feel like he's
232s half human half lost like that's why we
236s have the first normal solo fight where
239s you're fighting a shell of his own human
242s version and then really to the boss
244s fight which is like you see his purple
247s looking Spectra form which is like
250s fighting like his human but feels lost
253s and so and along with that has we have
256s the heart gem in the center of the fight
258s that is defiled I also came across the
261s world designer David McKenzie he showed
264s me really cool way of how we could
266s Leverage The Heart Gem of the fight and
268s that's what I thought you know let's use
271s the piece of the lore that what Umberto
274s is trying to do he's trying to use his
276s heart gem to convert lost Back To Human
280s but instead he accidentally ended up
282s defiling it so that heart gem is so
285s cursed and that's why I came up with
288s that mechanic where you know he walks up
290s to the center of the room he just Rises
292s up and the hard gem just you know
294s channels at him while he drains your
296s life it's like showing how unstable he
300s became with that heart gem that he
302s needed to actually take the player own
304s Essence instead so that was something I
307s worked it out and it turned out really
309s cool like and for the first ever Soul
313s trial in the msq I'd say players enjoyed
315s it very fitting for the soul trial to be
318s about of course we have souls throughout
319s the game but in fact you uh Lula do you
322s want to elaborate on like heart gems and
324s souls and like I don't what do I don't
327s even understand at all like what's
328s really going on in this weird world of
330s it what are you talking about I did not
332s okay okay there's various ways to go in
334s here so the heart Jam is sort of like a
336s fire break for soul wardens to like not
339s become corrupted which isn't to say they
341s can't be obviously spoilers incoming in
344s about 15 seconds but like it really
346s delays the time in which that can happen
350s so when Umberto's heart gem is destroyed
353s that is effectively when the player
356s understands how that can happen and then
358s later Isabelle learns from from the
360s player effectively how that can happen
362s as well hence yonas becomes corrupted
364s and then his heart gem gets destroyed so
367s it's like it's a last ditch effort to
370s keep yourself safe which clearly doesn't
373s always work but it definitely leads to
375s some climactic moments that the player
376s can engage in destroying one makes your
379s soul like more you know I think even as
381s Jonas explains when you first put it in
383s and we got a awesome scene coming up
385s that kind of shows this best um that uh
388s that this is like a bull workk against
390s the corruption or against it protects
392s your soul it's not bulletproof but it's
394s like an armor inside your
396s heart um all right so then the yonas
399s fight as he just mentioned was another
400s one that you worked on was a we also
403s drew the hard gem into that like do you
405s want to walk us through the process for
407s that one I mean that's an emotional one
409s of course because yonas has been the
411s player's Mentor the person who's
412s introduced him to the soul wens uh when
415s Isabella attacks the soul Wen base at
417s keradan she uh
420s basically uh chases I mean she uh takes
423s yonas out in Chains and then
426s she has her way with him I don't know
429s what that means exactly but maybe you do
432s so here's one
434s personal uh preference of mine with
437s respect to lore the darker the lore gets
439s the more I like it and that's what well
443s we kind of with UMO showing how he
447s developed a lot of hatred towards
449s everybody and him himself and now that
452s was like a piece of Darkness but now
456s when it comes towards yonas like this is
459s no like extra dark because it's very
463s personal to the player because Isabella
465s has done something that nobody thought
468s was expected like we had the whole lore
472s about why the heart gem prevents us from
474s you know getting corrupted we did the
476s whole story at the Aman Temple to you
479s know create the hard gym to you know and
482s set it up so one would ask you know if
484s you have the hard gym why the hell did
486s Yan just get corrupted so that's what
489s that's where I introduced the element of
490s having Isabella introduce that fight to
494s show that you know hard JS don't mean a
497s damn thing to her like she just loves
501s playing with us and that's all she need
504s and that's where where she leaves us
506s saying just look at your friend your
509s mentor or or what's left to him and then
513s that's what I use him rather than
515s actually being a fight with yonas it's
519s actually indirectly a fight with the
522s heart gem like if players notice there's
525s a big red shell there which actually
528s contains yanas hard gem in there and
531s it's actually trying to fight of what
534s corruption is supposed to do what our
536s whole story is trying to tell us and
538s that's why I that way I use it to you
540s know create a whole different phase
543s mechanics to show the more you fight yis
546s the more unstable the setup is getting
548s and it's just getting extra dangerous
552s but in the end that old man fought
555s through and he did come back
558s normal for five seconds yeah yeah he has
561s moments but I mean it's also cool cuz
563s she extracts the heart gem from his
565s chest which I think is an interesting
566s you know like we we depict that in a
568s couple other places like how that you
570s know you put this physical thing in to
571s protect your soul like well it can be
573s physically removed as well and make you
575s susceptible I do want to add another
577s piece about yonas that I love designing
581s back again when I was working with Sean
583s on this we actually thought of you know
586s using the lore of who yonas is wanted to
589s like simply fool around with players
592s like you know how yonas has been known
594s as the fisherman the pro fisherman sha
598s and I you always talk about you know
599s know how he loves fishing and how he
602s should just drop the ultimate fishing
604s rod as a joke and instead so we thought
608s how about while in one of his fighting
610s mechanics we introduced corrupted
613s fishing like of course in the end we
616s didn't because that would have been too
617s silly for a more a lore fight that was
620s too dark but instead what I did was I
624s created a mechanic where the player gets
626s a marker on their head and he tosses a
628s chain forward to just just pull you and
630s like as though you're the you're the
633s Target and he just cast his line in to
635s pull you like I never I never realized
638s that you had done that but I think it's
639s awesome yeah same um so Lula you know
643s you've worked particularly on the
644s stories we go forward from there and
646s like uh you're the primary author on all
649s the bit building up to Isabella so if
650s you will take us away from like the
652s yonas fight where we're going with the
655s story and soul trials after that
657s building up to yeah the big stuff okay
659s so uh the first trial in eban scale
661s reach is when you're fighting Xiao leang
664s and trying to save him which uh I was
667s being a little bit Cy in mentioning last
669s time I chatted with you uh simply
671s because I really like the mechanic in
673s that which is in any other Soul trial
676s you're really wailing on all the enemies
678s and just trying to destroy them in this
680s you're you don't have to like beat leang
683s down to zero HP you're trying to just
686s take the talismans that are around the
688s room trying to put it on him so he'll
690s breathe in the incense and get cured
692s which I thought was a really fun way of
694s doing that mechanic which is you know
698s there's something a little less violent
699s in this than the other ones and it's
701s fitting with the narrative because sun
703s Fun is above the uh wood Shrine right
706s now she's calling down trying to help
708s you out and direct you which I thought
709s was a really cool addition as well to
711s make it feel like oh you're doing a soul
713s trial with someone else who was kind of
715s helping you a little bit asymmetrically
717s and so uh that had very interesting
720s mechanic that really magnetized me when
721s I played it the first time after that we
723s have a more standard Soul trial at the
725s end of eban scale which culminates in
727s the empress herself being corrupted uh
730s which uh allowed us to present a soul
734s trial in a really interesting new
735s location which I didn't know we were
737s going to get I just thought it was going
738s to be staged on that dock area in the
740s dynasty shipyards but then when the
742s whole new POI appeared which was the
744s royal Pier I thought that was a great
746s climactic way to end our penultimate
748s Zone in the
750s msq and but this leads us of course in
753s aggressivly to where everything comes to
756s an end in Merk guard when we're fighting
758s Isabella this was of course the the one
762s we had to go back and forth on a lot
764s because not only did we had a lot of
766s ideas but there's the question of where
769s do we set this and I can't remember who
771s came up with the crazy idea of setting
773s it inside Isabella's mind might have
775s been me might have been McKenzie might
777s have been you who knows I'm just glad we
778s did that because
780s that allowed us to present this Soul
783s trial in a way that maybe other ones
786s couldn't um the great cleave Soul trial
789s is maybe slightly related because it's
791s in some sort of a strange realm but now
794s that wi Isabella's mind we can do things
796s and present them in a way that are more
799s symbolic for instance when you had the
802s idea of the cultists who were sort of
804s like memories of her old crew that
806s turned into corrupted that is something
808s if we put into another Soul trial in the
810s real world might not have really fit but
813s the fact that you in her head gave it a
816s different kind of a resonance and uh the
818s ending ends up being a lot more
820s interesting for me symbolically as well
823s but yeah so Krishna like as far as the
825s process is concerned in the Isabella
827s Soul trial I think the interesting thing
829s is the way those phases work not only in
832s terms of like the combat getting more
834s climactic and interesting but then we
836s have that you know mid fight convers
839s ation between her and Russo which you
841s definitely pushing to try to get as much
843s as possible I'm curious your thought
845s process on like what were the biggest
848s challenges in that and you know how do
850s you think players might respond to that
852s emotionally like after fighting so
854s heavily against
856s isab
857s o fell don't don't mind that Lula just
861s dropped something drop this
865s secret no
867s SP so
870s now we talked about how we had these
873s original so like apalus Umberto yice we
877s also had cool ones along the way like
879s the corrupted leviath and the mother
881s World Soul trial we also had different
883s ones in the seasons like Malik and Dai
886s so with all that in mind like we've been
889s developing soul chares for a bit now but
891s all these opportunities had given us you
895s know more experience more different ways
898s to think about so trials with and more
901s ways to you know make it feel Innovative
903s for a solo player and that's where we
906s leads up to Isabella because this is
909s like the end of the msq and it has to
912s have all its Grand grandness like she
917s this story has been building up to why
920s she is important why she wants you why
924s and why you need to stop her so and in
927s as as we go through these current
930s storyline we come across the guy who
933s initially sent us to turnament Father
935s Russo the guy who actually has a
938s connection to Isabella and that's where
941s with that story line once I read what
943s you had pitched up so that's why I
946s suggested let's bring in an NPC into a
950s soul trial like we've never done that
953s before as a matter of fact throughout
956s this whole game I cannot think of a
957s place where we actually see NPCs talking
961s to each other in an actual sense like we
964s only see the typical dialogue box and
966s you the player going switching between
968s NPCs this is the first case where I
971s actually
972s show an actual dialogue and a heartfelt
977s interaction between Russo and the person
981s who he once cared about Isabella to like
984s show that you know Isabella's maybe not
988s who she is she's just just normal but
991s corruption is just a virus that's
993s inflicting her mind and that's what I
996s wanted to show like a bit of emotional
999s thing but that's going to just turn into
1004s darkness um because that's what this
1008s whole fight is about like Isabella you
1010s you think this whole fight is about
1012s saving Isabella from corruption but it's
1015s just a massive backfire you can't save
1019s Isabella she's she's gone all the way
1021s we've had this discussion many times
1023s yeah I know I've already gotten beaten
1024s down on that point that's
1026s fine it ends very climactically so I'm
1029s satisfied um so I have to so um we're a
1032s little short on time I also want to
1034s point out you guys keep saying and the
1035s msq the end of the msq but the msq goes
1038s on we're an MMO and the msq goes on
1041s forever it'll never end um never and of
1044s course the next chapter is Adana which
1046s is one of your favorite characters I
1047s know and there's a lot of set up for
1048s Adana
1050s um and I'm thinking this might be a good
1051s place to Pivot into our community
1052s questions because I think we have a
1054s community question on Adana probably
1056s Let's see we want to talk about okay so
1058s yeah there was a question in here that
1059s jumped out to me because it's
1060s individually addressed to you they said
1064s you haven't mentioned adiana for two
1065s whole episodes now yeah that's from
1068s that's from pumpkin of pumpkins and I'll
1070s also note that that's not a question
1072s it's a
1073s statement so I'm assuming the underlying
1076s question is like why or why not it's
1079s because um I'm conscious of my
1081s obsessions and so since I mention her
1084s all the time it means that maybe there's
1085s a few times that I shouldn't so um I'm
1088s just trying to be balanced and like you
1090s know save that as an error in my quiver
1092s for when it really matters so maybe
1094s maybe next time cool so uh Fielding
1097s another one of these um let's see uh is
1101s there a way is there a plan to enable
1103s old characters previous first Zone work
1105s rework to redo the main story Quest from
1108s the beginning um and I'll I'll answer
1110s this although if you guys want to add in
1112s um the uh so we would love to do this we
1115s in fact we've looked for ways to allow
1118s you to at least go back as far as you
1120s can so like if you had fought and
1123s defeated Thorp before you fall back to
1125s that point in the msq and we can at
1127s least allow that the hard part is just
1130s like because of the way that the game's
1131s set up like there's a lot of thresholds
1134s the player's crossed a lot of things
1135s that have happened rewards achievements
1137s the player has made that we can't
1139s necessarily you know revert um and so
1142s indeed as someone suggests here like I
1144s think the suggestion is you know start a
1147s new character play from the beginning
1148s it's a really it's a totally new
1149s experience it's really great I think
1151s you'll enjoy it um and we can't uh we
1154s can't exactly take you back to the
1155s beginning but we might find a way it's
1156s still a possibility we're talking about
1158s it really important question here
1159s probably the one that most people are
1161s wondering story and trials what is the
1163s reason for not making solo trials
1164s replayable it's easy content the solo
1167s trials are very well done and it's a
1168s shame game you can only play it once
1170s make it a daily with difficulty scaling
1172s giving increase increasingly more
1174s rewards that's exactly the type of
1175s content that people have been asking
1178s for explain this rationale like what
1180s what in the world is going through our
1181s minds that we don't make these
1183s replayable uh I'm going to piggy back to
1186s a comment I made earlier like the reason
1188s how Soul Childs came in is mainly
1191s because it's meant to help our storyline
1193s and kind of appease to story lovers and
1197s give them a way to do boss fights
1200s without having to depend on other
1202s players so that was the intention with
1204s soldiers I agree that they're amazing
1207s and they should be repeatable and yes it
1209s is definitely on our plan you'll be
1212s seeing it sometime in the future but why
1216s we do this oh I want to come in on this
1218s one too though I have't I definitely
1220s have some perspective okay the um so you
1223s know back when we first started the very
1225s first one the apus fight uh there was
1227s immediately questions once we had built
1229s that oh we need to make this replayable
1231s with scaling rewards and like players
1233s can do it over and over again and they
1234s can do it with their friends MH it was
1235s determined uh as we looked at how much
1237s time it would take to implement it that
1239s way that it would take about five times
1241s as long to implement Every Soul trial if
1243s we did it that way and
1245s so I you know so you can blame me for
1248s the way this turned out because it was
1249s one of the things that I said well we
1251s really need these story instances we
1252s need these solar trials to accentuate
1255s the climactic moments in the storyline
1257s um it's more important that we can do
1259s several of these than having three or
1263s four that can be repeated an endless
1265s number of times and that's still the
1266s truth I think we still would love to
1269s make these replayable so and and I'm
1271s absolutely I think that's the way it
1272s should be they should be replayable they
1273s should be able to be access with a group
1276s um and challenge you accordingly which
1278s would be fantastic and I think it's
1279s still on our uh radar that that we will
1282s try to take that up at some point it's
1283s just it's a lot of work yes uh to add on
1287s to like what Rob's said like it's not
1289s just going to be scaling up the bosses
1292s like in in the storyline like let's say
1294s brother Amber was at level 35 Yannis was
1297s at 57 Isabella is going to be at 60
1300s spoiler alert but you get that the whole
1302s idea of you know repeatable trials is
1305s that it matches up to you know endgame
1307s level that you know you need to scale
1309s them up to what's the player's current
1310s level 65 right so to match up to that
1314s level so when we scale up you have to
1317s like keep in mind like what what if
1319s players actually find that the scale up
1322s version of the solo boss is actually
1323s hard or what if you know you asper the
1326s suggestion you know add a mutation makes
1328s it even harder like I'm as a player
1331s myself I have really hard time dealing
1334s with nature mutation and if I have to
1337s deal with a solo boss having nature well
1339s I'm going to have to uh struggle a bit
1341s but I'll get there eventually like I
1344s like suffering in some sort of way but
1346s not every other player is going to know
1349s have that kind of same mentality so we
1352s need to keep that in mind well when
1354s coming across a process like was like
1356s you need to say our players don't want
1357s to
1358s suffer I mean maybe the r Community
1362s might but not everybody but some that's
1366s the whole reason why we made these Soul
1369s trials for story mode to you know how
1372s allow enable them to do it on their own
1374s but this is an MMO players should not be
1377s afraid of asfeld so maybe should even
1379s consider the possibility like you know
1381s if they're struggling in the let's say
1383s for hypothesis mutated Soul trial like
1387s they should be allow to probably call in
1389s one person to help if they're absolutely
1392s struggling but you know then we have to
1394s factor in questions like does this
1396s dampen the reward does this dampen you
1398s know the mutation reward they get all
1400s those kinds of things so you need those
1402s are kind of questions we have to ask
1405s ourselves when you know making a
1407s repeatable trial like this so if you
1410s have any suggestions please leave it in
1413s the comments solve it for us um the so
1417s fun one here uh and I think two more
1419s questions maybe is all we have time to
1421s do um with the changes in the game
1422s script and codes do you consider in the
1424s Noto distant future fighting side by
1426s side with NPCs and Mission stories and
1428s Expeditions and future game updates wait
1431s you you would want to do this yeah like
1434s I mean co-oping with characters would be
1436s awesome but I think like a lot of games
1438s have done companion characters very well
1441s um what's super fun as storytellers is
1443s that like when you have someone who's
1445s running around with you they're talking
1447s about they're talking while they're
1448s running which is a lot more fun for
1450s players than having to stop and sit
1452s there with a UI and talk to them um and
1455s then you develop a relationship
1456s certainly if they're in the fights with
1457s you and going through all these things
1458s with you it just feels and I think as
1460s you mentioned we've done in a lot of
1461s places we've like kind of created the
1464s illusion of NPC joining you it's son
1467s it's Russo joining you or at least you
1468s know it looks like Russ is going to join
1470s you but then it gets booted out so it's
1472s like we've we've played with that idea
1475s as far as we can right now but I'd love
1476s to see it go even further sometime I'm
1478s sure players would love to have grayon
1480s Ali by their side for once sweet yeah
1483s well she does kind of you know I guess
1484s that's a spoiler you know she she does
1486s kind of come in and save the player in a
1489s in a certain scene that's a work in
1491s progress that looks really cool oh yeah
1492s yeah yeah that's definitely true it's an
1494s awesome moment can't wait to share that
1496s one yeah yeah um there was one other
1498s here that I thought we should hit on I
1500s think it's the tower one because it's
1501s kind of building off the same thing and
1503s making these repeatable and accessible
1505s yeah okay here it is dear host is there
1506s any opportunity to add individual soul
1508s trials such as Tower instances mechanics
1511s where each level awaits you with the
1512s challenging boss and as you go up the
1514s difficulty and mechanical complexity of
1515s the boss increases this type of
1517s challenge is commonly called the Tower
1519s of Trials and sub MMOs and greetings
1521s from pan Panama hey Panama Panama um so
1525s yeah we are playing new world so what
1527s yeah the Tower of Trials why don't you
1530s talk about it a bit and then I'll okay
1533s I'll say what what I know which is that
1534s we have talked about doing this and in
1536s fact we talked about adding this in as a
1538s seasonal element where every season
1539s would get um some sort of
1543s repeatable uh Tower of Trials it
1545s probably wouldn't be like a huge Tower
1547s but you know you would get at least like
1548s three or four of these story uh combat
1550s instances that you would fight through
1551s the way we talked about at the time was
1553s that you would get it wouldn't be um
1555s they might even have different themes to
1557s them as you went through this this trial
1559s um ultimately we we downshifted to do
1563s the story trials that we did in the uh
1565s the seasonal stories but it's not
1567s because we wouldn't love to do that I
1568s think we would and I think players would
1571s appreciate it well I'd say think of it
1574s as something we could it's a possibility
1576s in the future like this towering style
1579s is really an interesting concept I
1582s personally may have not experienced it
1584s from an MMO but I may have experienced
1587s it from another game so I get the idea
1590s of how it goes like you go into one
1592s level you fight the boss and then it
1594s keeps leveling up so the boss gets
1596s harder and with that you get a chance of
1598s more darker weapons more stronger sense
1602s with and of course each boss comes with
1604s its own mutation of sorts then we that
1608s is a definitely an interesting concept
1610s it would definitely appease to players
1612s and then if you need to think of it in a
1614s Solo trial route you'll have to again
1617s think of the questions I asked earlier
1618s like if you're going to do with
1620s mutations will solo players be able to
1622s survive it are we allowed to ask for
1624s help from other
1626s players those are things of course we'll
1628s have to keep in mind so again if you
1630s have more suggestions please leave it in
1633s the comments for us and we'll definitely
1634s take a look so yeah send us more
1636s questions we love questions send us as
1638s many as you like in fact we always kind
1640s of like to PR the community with a
1641s community question um and I feel like
1644s Christian has got one that you just want
1645s to throw out there or maybe Lula does uh
1647s let's cook one up
1649s yeah uh I would say think of it from a
1653s combat perspective what would be what
1656s would be a very interesting mechanic
1658s that you would like to see in a boss
1660s fight think of something that's you know
1663s not done before and give us something
1666s interesting MH can we do a side question
1668s if you were fighting with a favorite NPC
1670s who would it
1671s be like that uh that's a good one yeah
1676s like I would say mine is Dai like the
1678s dojo trial oh nice yeah yeah we got to
1681s bring those characters in earlier in the
1682s story CU they're they're so far out in
1684s Seasons um and they're so so awesome so
1687s well done um by several people but uh
1689s certainly including James who's a
1691s fantastic writer working on those yep um
1693s all right well then uh that uh that
1696s wraps us up today if you uh if you like
1698s the show please like or comment or
1700s follow do all these things um and until
1703s next time where we will see you in a try
1708s Isabella fight she's
1715s [Music]
1716s [Applause]
1716s [Music]
1726s Epic