Jumping in straight away to say hello! I was off last week but you guys left some pretty clear feedback about various aspects of the first iteration of this blog - hopefully we've addressed most of them!
If you have any further thoughts at all please get sharing and let us know what you think. Will be aiming to respond to as many constructive comments as possible.
Side-note, this is my first week as a 'no longer in probation' CM, it's been a wild 6 months so far, here's to many more!
Poll the update so I can vote no.
We'll be polling soon, and that will of course be an option! Would you be able to share any of your reasoning? Is there anything in particular about the proposed rewards that you're not a fan of?
I still think The Voidwaker looks a bit off, it needs more of something menacing.
What d'you think might make it look more menacing?
I actually liked the idea of dragon pick from MLM, so I could get 2 from wildy and sell 1 for nuggets to get my prospector set instead of having to do MLM at all for the Falador diary
:(
I'm sure there are a fair few players who would've liked this as an option, we noticed that conversation last time was absolutely dominated by people who absolutely didn't want to see MLM as an option. If it looks like we made the wrong call then we'll for sure re-include, but feels like the right choice based on everything we've seen so far!
I'm a PvMer and im excited for the Sceptre and the voidwaker, will be such good items for wildy slayer and anti pking. But if these rewrds will fail, its no hope for PvP, might say goodbye to it, sadly.
The Sceptre is absolutely bonkers for Wildy Slayer.
Like the top of the blog says, the key focus is the rework! We'll endeavour to make the content worth doing, and I'm sure no matter what happens we'll be able to find something that works for players and adds some spice to the reworked bosses on the rewards-front.
Credit owed where it's due, thank you for listening to the feedback about Zalc and MLM and changing it!
Have you guys decided on what the new drop rate for revenant weapons should be? (And did my skimming miss it)
I'm glad you're making sure this update is done right and properly. Kudos for that!
We haven't, we put it to the players! Check the new questions towards the end of the blog. We'd be open to other approaches too (we briefly spoke about a couple, things like having them dismantle into Ether is an option, similar to Rev weapons and Zulrah uniques)
About question 11, why restrict the buff to 5/10/15/20% ?
Maybe it's just me, but I expected the buff to be substantial, sure 20% increase is nice, but the perception of the grind is gonna be the same whether it has a 1/22k or 1/18k drop rate.
Maybe include an option of 20+%, and if that passes, then do another poll of 25/.../Higher%?
There's always room to tweak further, if feedback overwhelmingly trends this way then we'll 100% explore! Worth noting there's a balance to strike between keeping the value of the base weapons healthy vs. trying to avoid the new attachments having a similar price graph to the Pegasian Crystal.
Appreciate the feedback!
Korasi could look better in design but everything else looks great!
What d'you think could use a change for the Voidwaker?
Don't think anyone has mentioned whether everyone in the encounter gets a boss KC (like nex), or just the MVP (like everywhere else)?
Please make it so just the MVP receives killcount, the nex hiscores is pretty worthless due to this
I can raise this, but also think it feels bad to potentially have nothing to show for your time spent at a boss. We could probably de-couple them, but might get confusing for people who unlock the Diary Tasks or Combat Achievements for them while having no visible kc.
Looks great. I want to add onto the conversation that even with a 20% buff in drop rates, the weapons are still exceedingly rare. Maybe keep them at the current drop rates from Reventnts and have the bosses drop them at an improved rate?
This is also an option available to us! Nothing's off the table, and we can 100% make time for a Poll Blog v3 if what's currently on offer isn't satisfying.
How about tying the value of the revenant upgrades to the base item in some way. Perhaps by allowing players to transform the unattached upgraded item to the base weapon with some additional ether cost. We're already seeing the ward from TOA nosedive with how much more common it is than the arcane sigil, and I think it would be lame to see that happen again here. This could happen instead of making the revenant weapons more common from the revenant enemies.
This is a neat approach, will make a note of this and bring it up with the team!
This is a criticism that applies to v1 blog as well.
When you do the dps graphs, please stretch out the X axis (MDR) to be much further and label it with the relevant wilderness mobs. The bow and mace ones are especially bad here, as callisto sits at 75k MDR against slash and like 90k MDR against stab, and venenatis is something like 80k MDR against range. The graphs provided go up to 21k which seems misleading at best and dishonest at worst. Like yeah, Vorkath is at 20,070 MDR against stab and range but who cares in the context of wilderness weapons? Nobody's gonna use those to kill vorkath, the most important mobs are things like crazy arch, scorpia, chaos fanatic/elemental, callisto, venenatis, vet'ion, rev imp to rev dragon. You know, the mobs actually in the wilderness.
This is before talking about the "peers" to the weapons - Veracs is missing from callisto and venenatis and dcb/rcb+diamond bolts is missing from venenatis.
This is solid feedback, I'll make a note of it and try to bear in mind how we present DPS calcs in future blogs. Appreciate you taking the time to type this up, think everything you've said is valid.
Primarily, I think it's lame that content devs with a personal interest in PvP are monopolizing a significant amount of resources for a pet project while we do not have a content road map.
The reasoning for this being an 'integrity' update feels disingenuous - there are tons of things in OSRS well below the standard of the game today. It's fine if this is just something the team wants to work on, but call a spade a spade.
Secondarily, if this is going in unpolled you should at least share the (non-unique) drop table ahead of time so that it we can weigh that while we're deciding what to make of the unique rewards.
I don't have a vested personal interest in PvP! My main squeeze is early/mid-game progression, and most of my time spent playing is spent on iron.
There's a dev team specifically allocated to PvP which was allocated long before I joined, because there's a business case to be made for PvP content to be worthwhile.
As for a content roadmap, we're aiming for a Summit in Winter where we'll be able to go into a bunch more detail about what's upcoming and hopefully bring back some more of the 'personal touch' we used to get at Runefest or with other Summits.
I'm not too sure the non-unique table is 'finished' at this stage, but appreciate the feedback and want to reiterate what's said at the top of the blog about our willingness to make tweaks so that the reworked bosses sit in a healthy spot, and hopefully strike the balance between being worth doing without being too good.
Appreciate you taking the time to respond!
If this is an issue, maybe have "MVP kc" and standard kc as two different counters, similar to how entry mode/normal mode/hard or challenge mode works for raids?
I can see if this is an option, I'm not sure we currently store 'MVP kc' on player profiles, or if it's possible at present. Will pass this on!
Can you also poll adding wilderness weapons to the Wilderness Boss drop tables? The poll is only to boost the droprate from 5-20%, but the reality is that the droprate would need to be at least 3-4x higher to be even remotely reasonable from Revenants. Currently the wilderness weapons are just so absurdly rare that it would take something drastic to make them attainable.
Also can we remove the skull mechanic at Revenants? It just discourages people from anti-pking because they can't bring 3+1 items. The pker/anti-pker dynamic is what makes Revenants interesting, and it just devolves into trying to tag bots/goldfarmers before they can get away if they aren't trying to fight back.
Have shared thoughts on the rev weapons bits in a few other comments that you might find on my profile, just to reiterate that we're open to a variety of approaches if it doesn't look like this is the way forward in players' eyes!
I hope so too Goblin. I was wondering why the D pick isn't tied with the polled rewards. I'd say if the rewards would fail the poll, then Dpick wont be coming outside wildy, that would make more people voting yes to the new rewards, hopes for passing and getting both ant the same time. I would've liked to be this in this case, now people can spite vote and so on ;/
The final row of the table at the top of the post should give a pretty good insight into our thoughts on this issue in particular. If you feel like there's something it misses then let me know!
Somewhat related to the poll, can the dynamite-acquiring process be looked at for blast mine? Currently very few mid-level ironmen do blast mining because dynamite is kind of a pain to get prior to grinding COX. The d pick update is aimed at mid-level players, particularly ironmen who cannot just buy a d pick
Suggestions: -Have normal process make multiple dynamite
-Increase daily free dynamite from diary
-Have daily dynamite get deposited in bank automatically at some level of diary (perhaps hard?)
If it looks like Blast Mine is the wave here then we could for sure explore any QoL felt necessary to make the content a little more enjoyable alongside!
So many comments from people just counting the moments until they can spite vote the poll for the content they have no intention of even participating in.
As someone who’s beyond excited for new wilderness content, this shit is sad
There really aren't that many of them, and I think engaging with some of those people and coming from a place of genuine curiosity and understanding actually does more than some might realise.
Thanks for the update-
Wilderness weapons from revs are extremely rare, with it taking multiple 100s of hours to get a rev weapon.
I don't think that 5-20% is enough of an increase to stop this from turning into a pegasians/ranger boots situation.
The rate moving from ~1/20k -> 1/16k-19k is not going to be a noticable change, they're already so rare that they border on being a joke rate.
Maybe add an option to the poll for higher numbers?
Will bear this in mind, have shared thoughts on this in a few other comments. There's for sure a delicate balance to be struck between increasing drop rates to somewhere 'reasonable' and risking absolutely flooding the game to the point that the price of weapons goes down. Obviously this is less of a concern for irons and people looking for Coll Log slots, but still super valid and one that warrants a step-wise approach rather than coming out swinging with something like 'yo we're gonna double the drop rate, what d'you reckon?'
Appreciate you taking the time to comment!
You guys need to implement some mechanic that forces teams to move around the map after a boss died a couple times to prevent teams from just locking down a boss. Perhaps a bottle neck a team has to pass through where an opposing team who patiently waited thier turn for the boss to spawn on their side ambushes a team who previously controlled the other side. This will hinder giant multi teams like rot from just locking down an area.
Perhaps make it rewarding for the team holds the bottleneck while the other part of the team kills the boss etc. Perhaps a portal in a neutral area that will tele people to another third battleground to keep the control of territory paramount, etc
Don't let it be just an open crater with a random boss. Make people interact with the environment. Shit put a bucket of boiling oil u can drop in people's heads or something as they run past. You have an opportunity here to make things really great.
Also look into rotating loot tables to keep things fresh.
This is neat, I'm not sure it's something we'd really be able to implement at this stage (but if we run into issues then perhaps exploring something like this is an option). I do love the idea of some kind of content encouraging movement around the Wilderness though and generating thoroughfare between hotspots rather than just at hotspots.
Cool suggestion on environmental factors, for sure one to bear in mind either for changes here or other content!
Gotcha! I'll have to take a more thorough look when I get a moment.
From the skilling side of things, would you guys be open to giving some love to the mining activity that doesn't win? Not now of course, but somewhere down the line eventually ™️ .
anybody who sees me around on here knows I'm a huge VM shill. I think mining is actually a pretty varied skill these days (especially now that I've gotten hands-on with more of the potential methods) but could use some TLC to maybe get more people to try things beyond MLM.
tldr: not sure, but would love to see Mining (and skilling in general) see some love
Hey, seeing how you’re doing a Wildly boss rework. Is there any possibility you’re eventually going to rework monster/boss drop rates to potentially drop less skilling items, thus making skilling a more viable account progression type of content? Kind of feel’s lacklustre to skill when you could do bosses for the same amount of hours and get more resources out of it.
I can't say conclusively, it would obviously be a pretty massive change. But I'd like to see us find ways to improve skilling (especially social skilling) and make it feel a little more purposeful.
Potentially forbidden tech but I quite liked RS3's approach with their Mining/Smithing rework to adding 'Stone Spirits' instead of ore drops, that would require you to go out and mine, but be consumable for 2x ore. I think stuff like that might be a neat approach to get more people to jump between content, though it might not prove popular with players who are accustomed to full-sending CoX/ToB for many supplies.
Those special attack animations look sweet! Especially the magic one!
Art team did an unreal job with them, Accursed Sceptre is so camp but I'm obsessed with it!
There were a lot more on the previous post, and I agree, but it’s incredibly difficult to discuss pvp related content on this sub when the consensus is “wah pvp bad”. Not to mention advocating for it gets you downvoted to oblivion in most cases
I don't even think there were that many on the previous post, compared to what I'd usually class as 'widespread' sentiment when gathering feedback for any piece of content! Pretty happy to stand by what was said in the blog that by-and-large this has been one of the best-received PvP/PvP-adjacent proposals we've had in a really long time.
Downvotes are downvotes, they're not real things! It sucks to feel like you're not able to engage because your comments might get hidden, but it shouldn't prevent you from getting involved. Generally feels as though if you're coming from a place of genuine love for a part of the game and put your thoughts out in a well-reasoned way, people are pretty happy to engage. Unfortunately a lot of those convos get nasty pretty quick (from one group or the other) and it's difficult to rise above the tone when it gets down there.
Keep advocating!
I find the graphs hard to read and I'm not colourblind, I wonder if there's a better way to convey the same information? Anyway thanks the blog looks really solid now and I'm excited for the future updates
There was another comment about the graphs too, I'll make a note of this and see if there's a way we could perhaps better-present them in future!
How would you guys be adding the dragon pickaxe to volcanic or blast mine? Just a rare drop?
I think a drop system rather than points might be the play. It's hard to say. With VM, the gp value of points is somewhat tied to the price of runite ore, which is tied to alch value. Meaning you could effectively 'floor' the price of the D pick, but you'd risk tanking it with people who already have a bunch of points saved up.
I think as a drop or 'chance' would probably be a healthier inclusion, but would be curious to see how players feel about the approaches available.
u/poopdickerinos they removed mlm as an option how do you feel
I feel like I lack vital context here, but that is one hell of a username...
As an iron player, how feasible will these bosses be without rev weps? I see the rev weps could be made more common, would it be possible for that update to be before WBR? In order to prep for the WBR? Personally I think wildy slayer sits nice at the low to mid levels before unlocking some of the profitable slayer monsters, if the weps could tie into that I think it would be really nice.
I know this suggestion would be catering to irons, but how about a toggle to hunt for an untradable version of the weps at a much more common rate or you can toggle on the tradable versions to make gp and the rarer rates?
Their Defence stats are way lower than the current bosses, from what I've seen in some little testing sessions they're more than doable without rev weps. I think one of the things that makes the current iterations a little 'bleh' is that they barely feel worth doing if you're not able to safespot with Craw's/Chainmace - but obviously they'll still go absolutely nuclear here, such is their purpose!
Hello I am once again putting my obligatory "multi in wildy is a disaster comment"
Thank you for obliging us Mr. Mario!
Any chance we can get an autocast buff for wildy slayer? So your want/sceptre/staff remembers what you were doing when you switch to another weapon while not fighting another player? Very annoying to do barrage tasks in the wildy at the moment because of it.
Also, please increase wilderness slayer cave ankou leash range. Jerks always running away.
I can raise this as a feedback point, I think it's intended to make sure players still need to be interacting when using things like Harm Orb + Fire Surge, but maybe there are ways to turn that off if they're not engaged in combat actively.
If the goal here is to make the revenant weapons more common and avoid a peg crystal situation, I think the drop rate would need to be drastically increased. It's so rare that a 20% buff even really doesn't move the needle.
The Rev table has a ton of alchables. Maybe you could cut down on or remove those, and in turn put the weapons at a reasonable rarity? Or even better, give it a reasonable rarity when your slayer task is revenants. Something like 1/1000 from the good level revenants on task, 1/500 if skulled?
Edit: Actually, could the skull mechanic be outright replaced by having a slayer task instead? It feels a bit weird to give such heavy incentive for skulling, when skulling is usually there to give risk to the pker.
There are other ways to avoid a Peg Crystal situation too, it might be the case that this is one part of a multi-part solution in this particular case. I like the Slayer Task approach a little better, though! Just keen to strike the balance between making things slightly better without risking absolutely tanking their value (though this might be offset by the attachments 'sinking' rev weapons)
Was there any response to the concern of ROT camping and taking over the lairs?
These types of concerns are addressed a little towards the top of the blog, before the Polling section!
Is it possible to get a rough time to pickaxe at the skilling options before the poll closes/opens?
We don't have anything fixed in mind at this stage, and this could be something for us to take further feedback on. I imagine your 'best' option would still be Wildy bosses or KQ, but would ideally make sure skilling isn't a total bust as a viable means of obtaining.
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Singles versions are also being added, as stated in the Design Blog and reiterated in the Poll Blog - where you'll likely be safer than you currently are if you're only interested in accessing uniques or collection log slots.
I am so excited for this update. Thank you so much for all of your work on it.
Appreciate this! Still work to do, but it's always nice to see comments like this!
How was Wrath? :^)
I actually didn't jump in! I was planning to maybe dip in casually, but the person I'd planned to play with has stepped away from WoW. I spent most of my week off playing Sea of Thieves and Omega Strikers!
Can there be an additional option added to poll question 11 for "Higher"? While a 20% buff is certainly welcome, the drop rate for rev weapons is still dismally low even at the new rate.
Not asking for the weapon to have a 2 hour expected time to drop, but to use the new weapons even at 100 rev dragon kills/hr you're looking at a 220 hour grind per weapon plus additional time to get the attachments. 20% drop rate increase drops the time per weapon to ~176 hours which is still enormous.
Can for sure note this as a feedback point for a potential v3 if needed.
Could VM possibly be adjusted for competitive rates for masses while still keeping the highest rates for small groups as is? Feels like like it could have a lot of potential as fun content is masses
If it looks like VM might need some tweaks (were it to gain the D Pick) then I'm sure we could explore some things like this! Big fan of social skilling and keen to incentivise where possible!
With the voting requirements in those PvP polls earlier this year you guys made it sound like 90% of the community was spite voters. If there really aren't that many, why were those requirements placed?
I only said that there aren't many pieces of negativity in this instance - which I think is largely due to it being a rework aiming to make content work better for more types of players than usual with PvP/Wilderness content.
I'd been here barely any time at all for the experiment with restricted polling, but think the Poll Summary blog from around that time sheds at least a little light on what the team was aiming for at least.
This is great, however, there is also other wilderness content that needs some love. Some of the NPCs released during the Wilderness rejuvenation in 2014 have terrible drops compared to their level. High level dark warriors, bandits, and rouges were brought into the game with an abysmal drop table. Improving the drops on these high level variants could create potential PVP/PVM hotspots in the future… this could potentially be addressed with the future wilderness expansion update. Just food for thought
I hope that after this rework we'll be able to give some love to other content, maybe not by way of full reworks but at least with some rebalancing of associated rewards. You mention the higher-levelled DWs, Bandits and Rogues, but things like Scorpia and Chaos Ele also come to mind for me personally!
I think my only complaint is the bow looks a tad bit like the twisted bow. But I think I'm alright with everything else.
This should have been addressed in the table at the top! We're planning to make some small tweaks and will be updating the blog when we have them, that should separate the Webweaver from the Tbow a little bit visually.
Not a fan of removing zolcano and mlm as options, as those are the only two I would have voted for. Should have just left them in the poll and if people wanted them in the other 2 minigames the vote would have represented that.
I’m also concerned that thammaron scepter is still not going to be strong enough to be used. It doesn’t seem as good as the other 2 wilderness weapons while also being more expensive to use.
I think on the Sceptre, it's use in Wilderness Slayer is actually very strong. PoisonedPotion has a neat video showing it off in beta worlds - it's never going to hit quite the same as Craw's Bow or Viggora's Chainmace, but it's definitely not going to be without use! Also serves as a low-budget wildy option for people who maybe can't afford the other offerings but still want to get stuck in to some wildy content.
Congrats, I heard on Sae Bae's podcast you play PoE and get some inspiration from it. Thoughts on the current league? And what have you pulled from the game as inspiration, a way to incorporate some form of a skill tree like they have could be a pretty neat concept for a game mode.
I haven't jumped in to the latest League on POE! I feel pretty strapped-for-time a lot of the time at the moment, and when I heard everybody saying it sucks so I didn't bother this time around!
Thank you for the response. I don’t understand why it has to be the budget version of the other two? Why can’t it be equally as strong if it’s just as rare? It costs more to use but is weaker and has the same drop rate
Magic in OSRS is notoriously pretty hard to balance because of how Magic Accuracy works. When I say 'budget version' I don't mean it's outright worse, because its potency in Wilderness Slayer for barrage tasks can't be matched by Craw's Bow or Viggora's Chainmace. I only meant that it tends to be cheaper (though who knows, if it gets reworked) and is therefore an option for people without as much GP to spare!
If VM is chosen as the way to get the dragon pickaxe can you make VM instances? VM is a very delicate and complicated team minigame. Currently the method is only good for xp if you have a set team with roles and everyone on your team knows what they’re doing. It will basically kill the training method if every noob Ironman with 70 mining is crashing the worlds trying to get a pickaxe.
For sure something we can explore if it feels difficult to find worlds for experienced VM teams!
I’m gonna be asking the real question here: Horde or Alliance?
Whatever the homies are playing, but usually Horde!
Really been loving how much you interact with the community, hoping to see it continue for a loooong time 😁
Appreciate that! Fingers crossed, it's now a lot more paperwork to get rid of me so hopefully you're stuck with me (for better or for worse!)
For VM you could make it as a rare “Dragon fragment” drop from mining the boulder, with increasing rates as the boulder gets further down the path. And then maybe require a certain amount of points to fix it into a D pick outside the mine
I would maybe have imagine some poor soul had perished and dropped one that lava had solidified around and you might have a chance to yoink it while mining big rock. Am sure we'd find something lore/in-world appropriate in any case!
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Says as much in the blog! So I'd presume yes...
I don't understand removing it from MLM and Zalcano due to "player feedback" isn't it being a poll the ultimate player feedback?? /u/JagexGoblin Why not let the poll actually go through to see what the players want rather than listening to a minority on reddit/twitter?
Players made pretty strong points about it that we were inclined to agree with. I think a lot of it comes down to the discussion being utterly dominated by people decrying MLM in particular that it was hard to really get much feedback on anything else - by making a change like this we address a feedback point that we saw on basically every piece of social media from people all over the playerbase, and get to focus on other stuff & actually read different feedback to help improve the update.
Hope that helps explain the rationale at least a little!
Will the powered attack of Thammaron's Sceptre be usable against players? I have to imagine it is if you want the special attack of the upgraded version to be used against players. I haven't run any numbers, but it seems like it'd be quite strong if that's the case, since other powered staffs cannot be used in PvP in the wilderness, and it would render the harmonized nightmare staff even less useful . Maybe make it a 5 tick attack if used against players?
It is, but I'm pretty sure it gets pretty heavily outperformed by most other weapons, and obviously doesn't come close to things like Ice Barrage or Surge + Tome for players inclined towards using those, but it gives less experienced players or people just wanting to use some mage for wilderness PvM an avenue to retaliate with!
Thank god i just finished combat tasks for wildy bosses, after that they are gonna be pretty much impossible for solo players...
Would be keen to draw your attention to the Singles alternatives mentioned in the Design Blog, which would likely be safer options for solo players than even the current iterations
Yes but if i understood correctly those are like little cousins of current bosses and you'll still have tasks like kill 10 vet'ion or are combat tasks going to be reworked/ switched to their easier variants?
Have said in a few places (and I think it's buried in one of the blogs) that these singles variants should count too!
Why didnt i see the first “poll” ingame? Ive checked frequently for probably about 2 weeks
General process is Poll Blog v1 -> Initial Feedback -> Make tweaks and release Poll Blog v2 -> (repeat if necessary) -> Poll -> Address results with another blog if needed
We got a bunch of feedback after sharing the initial Poll Blog that we used to try and improve the poll before putting it live, which is the case with pretty much any polling! Giants' Foundry is a perfect example of how the process tends to go, if you remember that at all!
Why has scorpia and chaos elemental been left off of this rework? Scorpia is negative money per hour and located in 50+ wilderness multi combat and the chaos elemental is extremely dangerous as well. The chaos elemental also he extremely frustrating mechanics of spam teleporting you and taking off your gear and also nets very little gp per hour with no notable drops besides the dragon pickaxe.
I think in their case it's that they at least function as intended mechanically - but I'd love to give their drop tables a lot of love to make them worth doing, especially considering the risk associated with them being so deep. My hope is that after the Rework we'll be able to make some changes like this and give the wildy a boost in a few spots beyond the scope of this project!
/u/Jagexgoblin Apologies if i missed it, but regarding the singles variant for Wildy bosses (The ones in < 30 wildy), will they count towards their respective bosses Combat Achievements? (Which are only kc tasks atm)
Yes!
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