Original Post — Direct link

I’ve never made a post like this before, but this subreddit has become a breeding ground for the spread of misinformation, misrepresentation, and toxicity. Let me first say that this game has problems, that’s not a secret to anyone who’s spent much time playing the game; there is plenty of legitimate reason to criticize the game and aspects of the devs approach to the design of specific systems. Criticism is warranted, fair and should be encouraged as a means of communicating with the devs as a community about what we hate, what we love, and everything in between. I will always encourage genuine good-faith criticism. It’s the best tool we can use to help improve the games we love as a community.

What I can’t stand to see happen to any game’s community is the rapid spread of bad-faith criticism that is based upon lies, misinformation, removal of context, and/or willful ignorance gain traction and effectively solidified as truth within the community. Most games deal with some degree of this type of behavior at launch, but for some reason this community has seen an especially bad case of it recently. I’d like to provide some examples of these kinds of bad faith actors and arguments, in an effort to steer the community back into a reasonable state. Be warned this is gonna be a long post with quotes of statements made by /u/thearcan on this very sub. Without further delay, here we go:

Bad-faith argument #1: “The devs said that there are no problems with multiplayer connectivity and that everything is working perfectly fine”

We have 4 separate posts made within roughly 24 hours of each other making this same claim on the front page of this subreddit:

Every single one of these posts has over 80% upvotes at time of posting, despite the fact they’re based on a completely disingenuous claims that very nearly require some degree of active malice towards the devs to even believe, assuming you’ve bothered to read the full post in question. This is in my opinion the most egregious bad-faith criticism of the bunch. For context here is the FULL post they’re “quoting”:

Edit - THURSDAY: Just a note to say thank you to everyone who has replied here and/or DM'd me with details. I am continuing to gather reports to identify patterns that may be helpful to our team in investigating these issues.

I also want to reiterate that this reply is not us refuting that some players are experiencing problems with co-op. Rather, this reply is intended to explain the kind of information we need in order to better understand and resolve the issues you are facing.

OP below

Thanks for kicking this thread off, I'm really sorry that you're continuing to encounter these frustrations with the co-op connectivity.

As a bit of background for how we've typically dealt with connectivity issues to date:

Whenever I noticed a large number of reports around connectivity issues for the game I immediately checked in with the online team to see if we are encountering any connectivity problems. If they were not already aware (and they are aware most of the time), they then check all our systems and dashboards and either confirm that they are seeing the same issue or ask for additional details, which I then source.

Since we resolved the server issues of the launch week, our metrics indicate no widespread problems that are impacting the entire community. When we look at ping times for multiplayer games, they generally fall into acceptable ranges.

That's not to say there aren't problems - There will definitely be cases where some players are indeed encountering issues and you have quite rightly raised them in this thread after all. And whenever possible, we try to investigate these reports. For the cases where we are able to identify an issues, we can address them in some manner.

Just as a minor example: Thanks to community reports, we discovered during the demo that specifically players in South Africa were encountering bad connectivity in multiplayer, so we added on server capacity in Africa to help those players in particular. Their co-op experience improved thereafter.

However, had we not found out from those users where in the world they were accessing the game from, we would not have been able to identify South Africa as an issue. A South African Twitter user who says "co-op is laggy" but does not state any details, is not providing the information we need in order to help them, especially when according to the metrics we're looking at, the overall connectivity for players appears to be normal.

Since launch we have also made many other improvements to co-op connectivity that will have helped players in certain circumstances.

The key thing, however, is that amongst all the players that are connected online, the numbers of users with individual issues may not be immediately apparent to us when reviewing our metrics simply because of the sheer volume of players we're dealing with.

That's why working with the community is so important - We need to hear from you when things aren't working, but more important, we need a lot of details so that we can reproduce issues on our end. Reproduction in turn can lead to resolution.

So, I'd therefore like to in this thread request the below details if you are encountering specific issues you mentioned - these will help us track down your issues specifically. And if you can think of anything at all that may shed further light on the matter, please do not hesitate to include it.

Major Rubberbanding / D-sync / Hit registry not working

Please describe exactly what happens at what point. The more detail the better.

Do you only encounter these connectivity issues in game? During login? During matchmaking?

Please provide a date and timestamp also including your timezone of the latest instance where you encountered the above

What platform are you playing on?

What's your username on the platform? (Steam username/PSN ID/Xbox Gamertag etc.)

If you'd prefer to keep this private, please DM me the username personally along with a link to the report reply that you leave here.

If playing with friends, please provide their usernames privately too.

Were you the host or the client during the incident?

Note that the host shouldn't ever rubberband, but clients may rubberband based on the host's connectivity

What region of the world are you in?

Please don't mention exact locations such as streets or post codes, but a rough area such as county and/or country will be helpful.

If playing with friends, what region of the world is/are your partner(s) in?

Is the rubberbanding in every single multiplayer game where you are the client, even when you connect in random matchmaking?

Whats your normal Upload/Download speed?

What ISP are you with?

Are any other peer-to-peer games that you play with the same friends unaffected by this issue? Note that Destiny is not a peer-to-peer game.

4) Abilities/Skills not working correctly "especially trickster hunt the pray, venator's knife and time rift"

I believe these aren't co-op specific and will be patched in future.

5) Mods/talents not working in group6) Getting Randomly one shot and dieing out of no where.

I noticed reports of these last week and attempted to investigate this matter further. However, all users who reported it were unable to precisely explain what was happening or were unable to reproduce it. Many reported that the occurrence of this appears to be "random".

All information that I gathered was passed of course passed on for investigation, but random occurrences are incredibly difficult for us to track down. This is why we need as much information as possible with regards to these matters.

7) Game Crashing or Freezing.

Our upcoming patch work should continue to look into and address these issues, but again, the more detail we have the better.

Platform

What exactly where you doing?

Are you able to reproduce the crash?

If so, what steps do you take to reproduce it?

If on PC, please provide your system specs:

CPU

GPU

GPU driver version

RAM

OS version

SOURCE

Due to the popularity of the first post from above, we even got a follow-up response in that same thread from /u/thearcan , as quoted in full here:

Hey there,

A bigger follow up patch is coming as has been mentioned a few times throughout our previous mega threads.

Pasted the latest information below:

Patches: Our team is continuing to work hard on upcoming patches to address a variety of bugs and performance improvements as well as a few other things. More news on these soon.Balancing: As an additional small note, we haven’t forgotten your feedback on previous balance changes and are working on a post to provide more background on past changes and our overall balancing plans for the game. We will share an update with you in the near future.

The next patch will be our biggest patch to date and will address a lot of issues you're seeing. It's currently undergoing testing and I'm working through the patch notes for it and will share news on it's release when we know when it will land.

As for the response you quoted me on, please note that you did lift individual sentences rather than the message as a whole, which warps the intent of the reply. To quote my latest clarification on the reply in question:

I also want to reiterate that this reply is not us refuting that some players are experiencing problems with co-op. Rather, this reply is intended to explain the kind of information we need in order to better understand and resolve the issues you are facing.

As a additional note:

The "combat puzzles response" as mentioned here by /u/Pangolier was in fact NOT our "response" to an existing situation.

Rather, the interview information had been previously banked by the news outlet (possibly during launch day interviews) who then released it at a later time. This is standard practice, but in this case it unfortunately looked like a response to the situation at hand, which it was not. All our responses to date we've posted here on reddit first, and not in a news article.

If we haven't been more communicative on certain issues this past week, it is because we do not want to detract from the ongoing Inventory Restoration, but it does not mean things are being ignored or swept under the rug, as I'm sure you will realize once the next patch releases.

Edit to clarify on this last paragraph: The most effective communications we do are our mega-threads & updates, which I count to now be 14 since demo launch. 5 of those in the 3 weeks since launch.

While I do reply in threads, just as I am here, more comprehensive news updates and fix confirmations will always be mega-threaded, mainly because a reply such as this is inherently less visible than a fresh thread.

SOURCE

Nobody reasonable or objective is going to come out after reading those statements and genuinely believe that the devs are downplaying or dismissing the connectivity concerns of players. If you do, then you’re probably part of the problem.

Bad-faith argument #2: “The devs are dismissive of player concerns, and have gone radio silent, just like game X, Y, or Z that had a poor launch”

Post: Who are the Community Managers?

EDIT: /u/Gate_of_Divine the OP of this post has responded to me here in this thread, and it looks like I misjudged their intentions, so I will be inserting their response here to highlight my mistake:

My post “Who are the Community managers?” was not a bad faith, or whatever you call it post. Their Twitter posts had significantly decreased and I was looking for current information while on break. I couldn’t find what I was looking for so I made a post looking for an answer on who to follow. I had no clue it even was replied to until hours later. I am new to the sub and wanted to know who they were. I didn’t see any special flair on any user names like on other subs. Their communication is buried in a Mega Thread and not easy for someone new to find. Don’t direct how the community shaped the narrative by responding to my question as a shot at me. I suggest doing a little homework before calling someone out and trying to drag them through the mud buddy. Feel free to check my comments. I am a supporter of this game and community.

\*(INACCURATE, AS PER THE EDIT ABOVE. PRESERVED FOR POSTERITY)* Once again we see over 80% upvotes on a bad-faith post claiming that the devs have been “awfully quiet” and acting as if this subreddit isn’t absolutely BURSTING with developer responses and communication.\\** The post goes on to mention that the devs had not posted any updates for us since the previous Friday aka the weekend, but not just any weekend. This was the weekend that the devs deployed the massively important inventory wipe fix. The last update on Twitter that is mentioned in the post says the following:

So far, so good.

We will continue monitoring for any fresh reports over the weekend and are still aiming to share news about the inventory and character restoration process early next week.

SOURCE

So it was disclosed to us that they would be monitoring the fix over the weekend and we’d receive a follow-up post early the following week. This post is full of people confidently and incorrectly claiming that the devs have officially gone dark just like the devs of game X, Y, or Z and will be leaving us high and dry. To what should have been nobody’s surprise the devs shared an update with us later the same day this post went up. Imagine my shock!

Bad-faith argument #3: “This game is always online, so it’s a live service!”

This comes from a fundamental misunderstanding or misrepresentation of the terms “live service” or “games as a service”. I’d like to share with you the Wikipedia page detailing what these terms ACTUALLY refer to:

In the video game industry, games as a service (GaaS) represents providing video games or game content on a continuing revenue model, similar to software as a service. Games as a service are ways to monetize video games either after their initial sale, or to support a free-to-play model. Games released under the GaaS model typically receive a long or indefinite stream of monetized new content over time to encourage players to continue paying to support the game. This often leads to games that work under a GaaS model to be called "living games" or "live games", since they continually change with these updates.

The idea of games as a service began with the introduction of massively multiplayer online games (MMOs) like World of Warcraft, where the game's subscription model approach assured continued revenues to the developer and publisher to create new content.[1] Over time, new forms of offering continued GaaS revenues have come about. A significant impact on the use of GaaS was the expansion of mobile gaming which often include a social element, such as playing or competing with friends, and with players wanting to buy into GaaS to continue to play with friends. Chinese publisher Tencent was one of the first companies to jump onto this around 2007 and 2008, establishing several different ways to monetize their products as a service to Chinese players, and since has become the world's largest video game publisher in terms of revenue.[2] Another influential game establishing games as a service was Team Fortress 2. To fight against a shrinking player-base, Valve released the first of several free updates in 2008, the "Gold Rush Update" which featured new weapons and cosmetic skins that could be unlocked through in-game achievements. Further updates added similar weapons which starting include monetization options, such as buying virtual keys to open in-game loot boxes. Valve began earning enough from these revenues to transition Team Fortress 2 to a free-to-play title.[3] Valve carried this principle over to Counter-Strike: Global Offensive and to Dota 2, the latter which was in competition with League of Legends by Riot Games. League of Legends which had already had a microtransaction model in place, established a constant push of new content on a more frequent basis (in this case, the release of a new hero each week for several years straight) to compete, creating the concept of lifestyle games such as Destiny and Tom Clancy's The Division.[4]

Some examples include:

Game subscriptions

Many massively multiplayer online games (MMOs) use monthly subscription models. Revenue from these subscriptions pay for the computer servers used to run the game, the people that manage and oversee the game on a daily basis, and the introduction of new content into the game. Several MMOs offer an initial trial period that allow players to try the game for a limited amount of time, or until their character reaches an experience level cap, after which they are required to pay to continue to play.

Game subscription services

Subscription services like EA Play and Xbox Game Pass grant subscribers complete access to a large library of games offered digitally with no limitations. User need to download these games to their local computer or console to play. However, users must remain subscribed to play these games; the games are protected by digital rights management that requires an active account to play. New games are typically added to the service, and in some cases, games may leave the service, after which subscribers will be unable to play that title. Such services may offer the ability to purchase these titles to own and allow them to play outside of the subscription service.

Cloud gaming / gaming on demand

Services like PlayStation Now, Stadia or GameFly allow players to play games that are run on remote servers on local devices, eliminating the need for specialized console hardware or powerful personal computers, outside of the necessary bandwidth for Internet connectivity. These otherwise operate similar to game services, in that the library of available titles may be added to or removed from over time, depending on the service.

Microtransactions

Microtransactions represent low-cost purchases, compared to the cost of a full game or a large expansion pack, that provide some form of additional content to the purchaser. The type of content can vary from additional downloadable content; new maps and levels for multiplayer games; new items, weapons, vehicles, clothing, or other gear for the player's character; power-ups and temporary buffs; in-game currency, and elements like loot boxes that provide a random assortment of items and rewards. Players do not necessarily need to purchase these items with real-world funds to acquire them. However, a game's design and financial approach that aims to provide ongoing service is aimed to assure that a small fraction of players will purchase this content immediately rather than grinding through the game for a long time to obtain it. These select "whales" providing sufficient revenue to support further development of new content. This approach is generally how free-to-play games like Puzzle & Dragons, Candy Crush Saga, and League of Legends support their ongoing development, as well as used atop full-priced games like Grand Theft Auto Online.

Season passes

Games with season passes provide one or more large content updates over the course of about a year, or a "season" in these terms. Players must buy into a season pass to access this new content; the game remains playable if players do not purchase the season pass and do gain benefit of core improvements to the game, but they are unable to access new maps, weapons, quests, game modes, or other gameplay elements without this content. Games like Destiny and its sequel and Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Siege use this season pass approach. A related concept is the battle pass which provides new customization options that a player can earn by completing challenges in a game, but only if they have bought into the battle pass. Battle passes can be seen in games such as Dota 2, Rocket League, and Fortnite Battle Royale.

Games may combine one or more of these forms. A common example are lifestyle games, which provide rotating daily content, which frequently reward the player with in-game currency to buy new equipment (otherwise purchasable with real-world funds), and extended by updates to the overall game.[5] Examples of such lifestyle games include Destiny, Destiny 2, and many MMORPGs like World of Warcraft.

SOURCE

Now, I know that’s a long read, but even if we just skim the text from this page, it’s clear that this game does not CURRENTLY contain a single hallmark of a “live service” or “games as a service” title. Could that change in the future? Absolutely, it’s happened before! For now though, from my perspective if you’re making this claim you’re just as guilty of misrepresentation as these other examples.

TL;DR This sub is helping bad actors within the community perpetuate misinformation, misrepresentation, and toxicity that can only harm our reputation with the developers and the game’s own reputation. If you want to see the game improve, grow, and flourish in the future stop aiding these types of bad actors in the community, report them for misinformation, correct them in the comments, downvote, and move on to better, more productive content in this sub. If it’s not there, why not help create it?

External link →
19 days ago - /u/thearcan - Direct link

Originally posted by remzordinaire

Honestly the only thing the devs said that rubbed me the wrong way was about the infinite sign in on ps5, saying it was a console problem.

Maybe the ps5 has bad cache busting, but somehow every single other game that requires me to login to a service works flawlessly. I'd assume these other devs have then found the proper way to deal with the ps5 cache.

That part of their reply felt dismissive.

But hey that's just me, maybe I just don't understand the tone of their community posts either.

I do apologize that my response to this problem in particular came across as dismissive, I never meant for it to come across that way.

My intent was to separate genuine server issues from local bugs. The signing in issue, despite appearing to be a connection issue, appears to actually be a local console issue (hence why it's not appearing on all platforms).

This is one of those cases where conflating server issues can be misleading, which is why I deflected it from that particular thread. I should have provided more information at the time, but as our latest mega thread had just gone live, I was jumping across various different threads keeping up with things. That's not an excuse, it's just an explanation.

We're very aware of the signing in issue and from what I can see, our upcoming patch may well help alleviate it.

19 days ago - /u/thearcan - Direct link

Originally posted by ZeroRequi3m

Yeah honestly I do know that's there but it's by far the worst format I have ever seen in a subreddit. Like seriously I'm sorry but it's really poorly done and last time I checked it I'm pretty sure it sorted with the newest posts at the BOTTOM (maybe this has been changed I haven't looked in a few days).

Regardless just having an actual stickied post at the top, like frankly every single other game sub I have ever been in, even if THAT post then links to others, would be sooooo much better and less confusing/informative for players.

Edit: Just checked and YUP that god awful megathread collection STILL sends the newest posts to the bottom. Seriously is the guy in charge of that the same one who's responsible for outriders map??? It's abysmal. It's no wonder people are so uninformed tbh.

Thanks for the feedback - I took another look at the Reddit collection. The default collection functionality is that new posts get added to the bottom of the list when added.

Going into the collection manually, I was able to reshuffle the threads individually to bump the newest + known issues to the top - hope that helps your concern?

Regarding the overall format of the mega-threads, how would you like to see them change to better help with information?

Tagging /u/LtKrunch_ for visibility.

19 days ago - /u/thearcan - Direct link

Originally posted by ZeroRequi3m

Oh jeez lol sorry my comment tone was maybe a bit overly harsh (I didn't expect anyone to see it) but yeah having the new or at least most currently relevant posts appear at the top alone is a good start to addressing that. I really do think a lot of the posts in there can honestly just be removed though or taken out at least, there's a lot of old and frankly outdated stuff in there such as regarding the demo that just clutter it up.

I've been in way too many game subreddits (especially at launch) and the, I guess I'd almost say normalized format? Is to have one "issues or support" megathread stickied at the top of the sub so it's the first thing everyone sees, that lists all of the current issues and provides links to support, places to report player issues, suggested fixes and whatever else. Unfortunately humans are lazy with short attention spans so even getting them to tap into the mini list of dev posts is a lot for some people.

Honestly that alone would go a long ways and naturally clean up the subbreddit if people could very easily and clearly see an issues thread and access it to see what's going on rather then making endless posts about it or hunt down dev comments within posts. Not that commenting isn't great as well, because it is and should be encouraged, but having that central post usually always helps. Obviously you edit it as issues come and go and can use it as a general problem reporting thread, or drop a link to a specific one within it.

Outside of that you could also include either in that stickied post or in a separate post a section for say "Community Suggestions" just listing any common popular suggestions by the community (even just basic QoL ones) that have been passed on to the team (if any have been passed on). I realize this isn't a game you guys plan on supporting long term (which is what it is) but there definitely are some very basic things, such as gear locking that I think the general agreement is that it's a badly need basic feature added.

Things like Patch Notes or News honestly don't need to be megathreads or at least not stickied for more then a few days as of course they don't stay relevant for long and any players that are going to read them, will do so in the first day or two.

I don't know what else to suggest for now, obviously community interaction is not easy especially in a situation like this where a product is released that has a lot of problems which prevent customers from enjoying said product. It's rough but it is what it is. Just provide solid and easily accessible information about whats going on and the problems, don't promise anything that isn't 150% and ignore any weirdos who are overly rude or just downright nasty.

Hope that helps a bit!

Edit: Just some other notes. The Issues post or megathread should have a title that reflects that. Currently the one up is 22 days old and starts off with "Launch Info" which is a big problem. Launch is now well over technically speaking so the people who read just those few first words, or even read the whole thing aren't necessarily going to interact with it. The Inventory wipe post could also easily be included with issues. Something titled like "Current Issues, Server Stability and Inventory Wipe Info" would be a lot more straightforward and appealing to people I think.

Basically you want to think of people as extremely ADHD Ferrets that IF you're lucky, will actually read the whole post title let alone the preview of what the post contains. So you have to make things as simple, straightforward and accessible as humanly possible for those people who are barely going to spare it a glance, even when they come to the sub to report an issue that the megathread probably already covers.

Thanks for the feedback! Our known issues and tracking thread was indeed stickied for over two weeks after launch and it contains exactly all the links that you were looking for.

Known issues, Status pages, support links, etc.

Very much understand that the title including "Launch info" might have been confusing though.

It should have remained stickied, but Reddit only allows two stickies at a time, so I believe it was rotated out when the sub-reddit team implemented the daily mega-threads, which are designed to prevent thread duplications as was happening a lot.

It's probably a good time now to do a refresh of known issues thread and also remind folks here of what my actual intent was when I replied in the various threads.

Perhaps I'll look into archiving most of the collection content into a separate collection. The reason I have all that info and those threads in the collection is to remind people that we ARE communicating and doing so continually.

Maybe the collections experience isn't as good on Mobile as desktop... will have a look at that too.

Thanks alot to /u/LtKrunch_ for making this thread btw, It's very much appreciated!

19 days ago - /u/thearcan - Direct link

Originally posted by OcotActual

Also quickly for reference, on mobile most of your comments are so buried in the responses I never see them and it can get frustrating opening huge trees of responses to find what y'all are saying. Other gaming subreddits I've seen have bots that will post in any topic when a developer responds to highlight where it is/what it says. I think this would also help communication issues.






Links in this thread

r/outriders - Comment by u/OutridersBot on ”This sub has a major problem with misinformation and misrepresentation”
825 votes, 485 comments. I’ve never made a post like this before, but this subreddit has become a breeding ground for the spread of misinformation …


/u/LtKrunch_


devtrackers.gg