almost 3 years ago - /u/viperesque - Direct link

Hey everyone! I'm James, one of the game designers at GGG, and Path of Exile: Royale's return is one of the things I'm working on. The first weekend of Royale has just wrapped up, so let's talk about it.

Royale over the weekend went really well overall. There's been lots of participation and a lot of people have enjoyed it. That said, we're keen to continue improving it and are going to be making some changes before it's next available in about a week and a half. This is going to include balance changes to skills (both buffs and nerfs) and the odd bugfix like fake quicksilver flasks, but also most likely some other tweaks. Probable targets for these at an early stage would be stuff like skill gem availability and how punishing falling behind on experience can be, but the final changes may involve more or less than those.

I've been obsessively reading feedback everywhere I can all weekend, managed to play quite a few rounds myself (Hi, Aus gateway peeps!), and will be analysing all the gameplay data over the next few days. That all said, I still think it would be cool to gather a bunch of feedback all in one place and where you can be sure GGG is reading it. So: did you have fun playing Royale this weekend? What prevented you from having more fun? What could be better? Giving me a bit of info on how experienced you are with regular Path of Exile would also be helpful. And on the side, if there are any lingering questions about the mechanics of Royale or how things differ from regular PoE that the news post didn't clear up, I might be able to answer. Thanks!

EDIT: Bedtime for me, will keep reading tomorrow! Thank you for all the feedback so far, and I promise I've read everything even if I can only reply to a small percentage of it.

EDIT2: Woke up to 340 messages in my inbox. Phew. All caught up now, thank you again! The response has been bigger and more helpful than I was anticipating.

External link →
almost 3 years ago - /u/viperesque - Direct link

Hey everyone! I'm James, one of the game designers at GGG, and Path of Exile: Royale's return is one of the things I'm working on. The first weekend of Royale has just wrapped up, so let's talk about it.

Royale over the weekend went really well overall. There's been lots of participation and a lot of people have enjoyed it. That said, we're keen to continue improving it and are going to be making some changes before it's next available in about a week and a half. This is going to include balance changes to skills (both buffs and nerfs) and the odd bugfix like fake quicksilver flasks, but also most likely some other tweaks. Probable targets for these at an early stage would be stuff like skill gem availability and how punishing falling behind on experience can be, but the final changes may involve more or less than those.

I've been obsessively reading feedback everywhere I can all weekend, managed to play quite a few rounds myself (Hi, Aus gateway peeps!), and will be analysing all the gameplay data over the next few days. That all said, I still think it would be cool to gather a bunch of feedback all in one place and where you can be sure GGG is reading it. So: did you have fun playing Royale this weekend? What prevented you from having more fun? What could be better? Giving me a bit of info on how experienced you are with regular Path of Exile would also be helpful. And on the side, if there are any lingering questions about the mechanics of Royale or how things differ from regular PoE that the news post didn't clear up, I might be able to answer. Thanks!

EDIT: Bedtime for me, will keep reading tomorrow! Thank you for all the feedback so far, and I promise I've read everything even if I can only reply to a small percentage of it.

EDIT2: Woke up to 340 messages in my inbox. Phew. All caught up now, thank you again! The response has been bigger and more helpful than I was anticipating.

External link →
almost 3 years ago - /u/viperesque - Direct link

Originally posted by YeastyBoizz

Really good job on the mode honestly.

Some feedback I have.

  • Please add more openings on the beach, the long cliff walls really feels bad and the map is already disorienting so it sucks to pick wrong and walk along the cliff side for 40 seconds to get to the next level.

  • Despite all the bitching about blight, the major offense is just how fast you can farm off the beach with it. It's far and above the best farming skill and has a knock on effect of just soaking up all the mobs on the map as a result. Moving this gem to level 4 would probably be the best bet.

  • Spammable movement skills are pretty hard to contend with if you don't have one. Not sure what the best solution for this would be. Feel like the one and done movement skill lends itself to better pvp though.

  • There is potential for 2 handers but that 2 hander node that makes it so you can't evade and you move slower feels REALLY bad in this mode. It's very hard to hit anyone with 2 handers the way melee targeting works in this game and it will continue to be in a bad spot as a result. Not sure what the fix for this would be but maybe adding some AoE to that node would be a start.

  • Overall, there are actually quite a few good farming skill gems that you can get off the beach (frost bolt and spectral come to mind besides the obvious s tier skills). Obviously, a lot of people were just leaving if they didn't get blight or EA but I think as more people adjust to what's possible, this should be somewhat mitigated. Reducing the early farming potential of blight in particular will address a large part of people being mad about blight and force quitting games.

  • A static amount of flat catch up experience on every circle close could help keep lowbies in the game and help them feel like they still have a fighting chance. They shouldn't get anything close to a person who rushed the mid well and got geared up but the absolute floor of people in the final circle should probably be closer to level 6-7 if that's possible without giving a ton of experience to the high end.

All in all, great job on the mode. Please don't let the loudest voices force bad design decisions because they want an easier experience. I had a lot of fun playing it and look forward to seeing it again in 2 weeks after you guys have made changes.

Edit: Been playing since closed beta and probably one of the few players that enjoyed the various cutthroat leagues.

Thanks! The terrain RNG point is an interesting one, haven't seen brought up in previous feedback but it's coming up a fair bit in this thread. Will keep it in mind.

Something I'd like to aim for is to have every beach gem be potentially exciting, even if it's not what you're personally looking for. Try and avoid the feeling of current duds like Burning Arrow. Might take a while to get there though, especially since early PvP could be valid reason for wanting a specific gem but early PvP currently feels unrewarding.

almost 3 years ago - /u/viperesque - Direct link

Originally posted by WayTooDumb

Glad to see GGG actively seeking feedback so quickly!

did you have fun playing Royale this weekend?

Largely, yes.

What prevented you from having more fun?

Skill gem rng and experience snowballing are probably the two biggest issues, as you pointed out. There's also a big disparity in movement skills - the difference between having any movement skill and none is absolutely enormous, and the difference between the good and bad movement skills is also enormous.

Also you killed me a couple of times, which wasn't very fun. If you could also tell Zaccie_GGG to go easy on me in future that would be great.

What could be better?

I think the mods on rares could probably be brought in line with the skill tree - currently so much of your power comes from skill tree and item bases rather than the mods on gear. I also wouldn't say no to the mobs in the last zone or two having more complex abilities, and I would love the occasional big boss-type mob that hit hard and that players would fight to get the last hit on.

Giving me a bit of info on how experienced you are with regular Path of Exile would also be helpful.

Total noob 3 hours in PoE never beat hillock help help help.

There are already some royale-specific mods on items that have much higher ranges than the low level would usually allow. Movement speed is one that you probably noticed. We can probably go further with the concept though.

Also you killed me a couple of times, which wasn't very fun. If you could also tell Zaccie_GGG to go easy on me in future that would be great.

My bad, killing you is indeed very rude of us. :P

almost 3 years ago - /u/viperesque - Direct link

Originally posted by NeverSinkDev

I'm definitely not good at PVP, never played royal games and my POE skills consist of more knowledge, than coordination and speed. I played around 20-30 rounds (I think? I have no idea) and got second 3 or 4 times.

Still: Overall I had a lot of fun and would play it again.

  • Please design or let me design a better filter please. It can be minimalistic and GGG-like, but the current one is highlighting RGB-linked items, has no distinction for flasks/jewellery etc.

  • More mobs, maybe even bosses, it'd be nice to see a bit more PVE to it. Maybe even "micro-dungeons" to enter and clear a bunch of mobs, to keep the mapsize the same. It gives you the chance to get some loot and change gear and others to ambush you, when you get out.

  • Skill balance is a big one. Many skills just can't compete early on in the race for experience and others hit like a wet noodle (divine ire). If you don't get a solid start, your chances to get experience and potentially a movement skill and survive are extremely low.

  • I believe itemization and PVE should have slightly a bigger part in the game. Right now your level and main skill and supports are the defining features.

  • I also noticed rounds with ~50-60 players seemed more fun.

  • I've read that the best way to play is to quit if you don't find EA/Blight in the first 60 seconds. If that's true, it shouldn't be the case.

Thanks for the feedback! Allowing filter customisation is something we want to do if we can overcome some of the issues with the amount of advantage a finely tuned filter can give players, but an interim Royale-tailored filter isn't out of the question.

almost 3 years ago - /u/viperesque - Direct link

Originally posted by cedear

People should drop corpses if they log out.

It's always hard to account for griefing, isn't it? I'll see whether this is reasonable.

almost 3 years ago - /u/viperesque - Direct link

Originally posted by OldManPoe

First off, I not complaining, I glad that a lot of people are having fun with it. I did play it once, but only to compare it to the original version. I don’t plan on playing it again as I’m not a very good player, I take too long to do anything. I don’t want to spend my time being cannon fodder to much better players. Best of luck improving it.

Thanks! I'd be curious whether there's anything that could actually make this more fun to players like yourself though. It's naturally tricky to balance rewarding skill vs being fun for everyone, but if there are any specific pain points you noticed let me know.

almost 3 years ago - /u/viperesque - Direct link

Originally posted by ZiocxOmega

Not sure if people will like my suggestion, but it would be cool if you can build up to winning the Rhoa Dinner or some other reward. Depending on what rank you place, you build up points for a reward. For example the old race reward system.

It's probably not going to happen for the rhoa feast, but if we ever do more royale rewards in future this is something we'll keep in mind. Something worked towards with kills instead of wins, as an easy example.

almost 3 years ago - /u/viperesque - Direct link

Originally posted by MrHara

For reference I have upwards of 7k hours mostly playing HC, 14 wins in the first Royale back in 2018, and around 6-8 wins this time around. (Mostly out of time and heat not playing more).

The positives: uniques, more gems and the passive tree are great additions. Variety makes for a lot of fun.

But any positive change is hampered by the change in the map (it feels smaller at least) and the placement of early loot that is creating a mad dash that never stops. It's a mad dash for a usable skill or in some rare cases a skill at all, leading into a mad dash for experience. For some people this might be fun but there's not much minor downtime and you feel constantly shoulder to shoulder with other people, especially in the 100 people games.

Bigger map is a tall order, so that is prob. not a great fix. A balance of mob density in the areas, %experience gained and maybe a sort off soft-cap on experience for after 10-11.

I looked back on the old Royale and noticed the area had 100% inc. experience but I think it was def. less mob density (which would make sense that far back) since most games I won at 35-50k experience. (To be fair, Split Arrow was quite op back then).

With the nerf to support gems, I think more could be included as well. It would be more interesting to find more power-focused gems, as this could offset weapon-rng etc.

Missing skills would be interesting (not sure I saw Galvanic arrow f.e.) but some are def. hard to even bring in like Split Arrow, Blade Vortex.

Thanks! Just noting, the original Royale did indeed have a higher xp multiplier, but not only did it have much fewer monsters, it also didn't give nearly as much experience for killing players. Players being rewarding xp at all stages of the game is definitely a goal. I just overshot nerfing player xp for the live release I think, because farming players early was too good in our later internal playtests.

almost 3 years ago - /u/viperesque - Direct link

Originally posted by ChampionsLedge

I've been playing PoE Softcore trad leagues on and off since 2012 but haven't played much in the last year or 2 and have done all content apart from the Maven boss fights. PoE Royale is great, I got a good numbers of wins during april fools but this event I just can't get a win. I definitely got over the game in it's current state and ended up not having fun with the meta.

Felt like at least half of my starts I either didn't spawn near a cache or I spawned in between 2 people that rushed for the same one and the first person to click it was able to get the loot before I could.

There's a huge difference in the power of the skills. One round I had a blight gem lying on the beach right in front of where I spawned and I was able to rush through and destroy anyone I saw until someone with whirling blades (and I assume almost equally good start) sliced me up in 2 seconds. Other game I've had nothing but heavy strike or frost bolt or ice spear. I don't know why anyone would ever use heavy strike with how long it takes to attack as well as being single target. Frost bolt is way too slow to attack any players with. Ice spear as a single projectile is also awful.

As you mentioned, anything other than a strong aoe skill early on and it's game over before you even get to play. But also not getting a movement skill is also an insta loss. Whirling blades especially is far too strong.

In all the games I played I don't think I saw a PvP kill on the beach although most of the lobbies I played never got over 60 players so maybe it's different in other regions. I'd like to see early PvP encouraged but I can understand why people don't want it.

Something I want in regular PoE as well but would fit really well into Royale. SKILL TREE PLANNING and also auto allocation of points. I love the small skill tree screen but I often have to hold onto skill points while I try to get to a clear area to allocate them without getting attacked. Being able to select skill points in order before I get them would be amazing.

Every time I load into a Royale game I have to make left click move only, block my mwheel keybind with something and move my flasks around. Having this saved would be a nice addition since I've spawned into games with very little time before it begins and I might be doing something on my second screen. It's nice that the downtime between games is so short though.

Would it be possible to get a loot filter system for when you're looting bodies? I've killed some people that have an inventory full of garbage and then died trying to see if any of the 5 bows they had were decent.

I'd like for there to be better crafting options as well. Resonator and fossil drops would work out great in this mode and I'd also like to see scours so I can use bindings easier and regals so I can use chaos easier. Do the good players even use currencies or is that part of why I suck? being able to craft on currently equipped items would be great but I know there would be issues with requirements.

Shrines could be a nice addition too and if they refreshed like the flask thingys do then it could help with respawning mobs (could also randomise the shrine each time)

MMO style boss events could be a cool thing to do as well. Spawn a random boss in an area and give everyone a secondary pointer towards it like there is to the main zone. It would bring people together, drop loot and give xp which would help people who are behind catch up.

Thank you for the feedback! Most of this is stuff I'm noting down and can't comment on yet, but I will say:

I'd like for there to be better crafting options as well. Resonator and fossil drops would work out great in this mode and I'd also like to see scours so I can use bindings easier and regals so I can use chaos easier.

We had more currency types early on in testing, but it's a delicate balance to have enough currency types to feel flexible without diluting the currency pool with niche stuff or just dumping tons of items on you all the time and overwhelming you. Maybe a few more tweaks are needed though.

almost 3 years ago - /u/viperesque - Direct link

Originally posted by ilya138

Any plans to implement this mode for consoles?

We'd like to, but aren't certain yet how viable it is. To quote the news:

Even with the higher player populations on PC, it may still take some time for new Royale games to trigger at certain times of day in certain regions, and these issues will be significantly exacerbated on the smaller console realms. We'll see how it goes.

almost 3 years ago - /u/viperesque - Direct link

Originally posted by Grave_Master

I would say I'm casual player (4650hours in steam). My royal experience (skipping most obvious ones like Blight etc).Around 5 games, 0 kills (I prefer a term "pacifist" instead of "lowskill" Kappa), frequent desyncs, blocked by mobs (desync fault, not mine KEK), struggling to find a gem, item and skill panel management is a pain in the golden arse of Innosence. After playing with custom filters where I see only what I want to see those normal junk items are very distracting.I suggest to add lines with "how to" tips when you sits at queue like those on loading screens with possibility to scroll them (if you familiar with dota 2 than analogy would be dota 2 pause tips)Also think about royal as possible hook for players who never played poe itself, maybe friends lure them to try royal and maybe they will try actual game, so it should be somehow not clunky for people like this, it should be smooth to hop in.

PoE MMO when btw?

I suggest to add lines with "how to" tips when you sits at queue like those on loading screens with possibility to scroll them

Ooh, I like this idea for the longer term. Thanks!

Also think about royal as possible hook for players who never played poe itself, maybe friends lure them to try royal and maybe they will try actual game, so it should be somehow not clunky for people like this, it should be smooth to hop in.

That would definitely be nice to achieve, though deciding the compromise between being accessible and being true to PoE is a minefield!

almost 3 years ago - /u/viperesque - Direct link

Originally posted by aRadioWithGuts

Had a fun weekend on BR. One piece of feedback I haven't seen here yet but I saw come up in game and on streams this weekend was how disadvantageous it felt to spawn near the stone golem area versus the spiders or apes. That seemed like one of the RNG 'reset' conditions that could be way too hard to overcome.

I see what you mean, we'll look into improving it.

almost 3 years ago - /u/viperesque - Direct link

Originally posted by Amuxix

I would like to see some improvements on the spectator mode, I would love to be able to see the items/tree of the person I'm spectating.

It would be cool, but there are significant technical challenges involved. Maybe one day, but definitely can't promise it.

almost 3 years ago - /u/viperesque - Direct link

Originally posted by schmidlidev

Items in deathboxes need rarity outlines. It’s annoying to need to mouse over 20 items when 18 of them end up being whites. Being able to instantly identify the 2 rares by a yellow outline/background color would be great.

I'll see whether this is feasible.

almost 3 years ago - /u/viperesque - Direct link

Originally posted by Scrattlebeard

First off, I absolutely love that you're reaching out for feedback like this and I hope I'm not too late to the party, because I'd like to pitch in my two eurocents.

There's a lot of valuable feedback posted already on very specific topics, so I'll try to approach the subject from a more holistic angle, looking at the different phases of the game and how they are treated in some of the successful games of the genre (no, I'm not saying PoE should copy Fortnite).

 

Early game:

In PoE Royale, you spawn in a random spot on the beach. When the countdown ends, you frantically rush inwards, hoping to snag a box of supplies or a stash before the exiles who spawned close to you get there. If you manage to snag a good skill gem, you continue your mad dash towards the ramps inwards to hopefully get or maintain an experience lead. If a good rare or some movement speed boots drop for you, nice, but you can't really afford to spend time farming for these at this stage. If someone else snags the good gems ahead of you, you're relegated to scavenging for stashes other players might have missed since you can't reliably force an engagement with whoever stole your loot, if they don't want to stand and fight.

In other notable Battle Royale (BR) games, you have some choice regarding your starting location. Do you drop towards one of the more desirable areas knowing that you'll most likely have to fight off other players early game or do you go for something more remote, settling for less early game loot in return for a safer and less hectic start to the game? As you drop in, you'll get a feeling for how many other players chose a location close to yours, and their relative position to yourself, preparing you for the likely encounters. Disengaging from other players can be a difficult and risky process since gunfire is likely to end the game for anyone who just turns and runs.

In other BRs, more than half of the players generally proceed from the early game in some form of fighting condition. If you are eliminated, it is generally in a fair fight with other players or due to an ambush. In PoE Royale, it currently feels like as much as 80% of the players are effectively eliminated on the beach, falling too far behind on the exp train to ever become relevant threats. The main actual elimination comes from someone picking a bad fight out of desperation, hoping for that 10% chance to snag a good skill and some needed exp.

Observation: The amount of "effective eliminations" is a problem. Eliminations should be due to pvp rather than falling irrecoverably behind or feeling like that is the case.

 

Observation: We want players to feel like they have agency and meaningful decisions to make in the early game. There seems to be a consensus building that the best strategy is restarting until you happen upon an inherently strong start.

 

Midgame:

Experience is the name of the PoE Royale mid game. You're probably picking up some potentially relevant loot too and starting to allocate some passive points, but better not spend too much time on anything except moving inwards and killing mobs. This stage is pretty similar to racing since the most successful players are those who can juggle their inventory and skills while blasting through the mobs. If you fall behind here or if you fell behind in the early game, the map will start to feel empty as the other players clear ahead of you, and you will probably find skills and gear with level requirements that make them unusable for you. "Fair" fights are rare and kills generally occur when one player is distracted by looting or otherwise managing their character, and/or if the other player is significantly stronger while having a movement skill advantage to quickly chase down their victim.

In other BRs, the pace generally calms down during the midgame. With the early fights around the drop zones finished, players or teams have to balance chasing additional loot and equipment with trying to get into a good tactical position for the late game conflicts. Some will look to recover from a weak start or catapult themselves further ahead by attempting to get the drop on other players and eliminate the opposition while getting more loot, but most skirmishes occur as players naturally gravitate towards the points of interest on the map.

Observation: PoE has a complex and deep system for character customization, but you get punished harshly if you spend too much time engaging with it. You need to know your plan for the different skills ahead of time, and be able to recognize potentially relevant items at a glance. This makes the mode very unforgiving for new players.

 

Observation: While "kills of opportunity" happen, players are generally better off playing PvE than pursuing conflict in this phase. Note that this isn't necessarily an issue.

 

Observation: The island starts to feel small and barren during this stage, if you're not leading the pack. You can end up spending a lot of time combing through the area for mobs missed by the players before you with no clear goal or destination.

 

Late Game:

You've reached the center of the map, and most of the monsters have been cleared out. Now is the time to fiddle with your inventory and optimize your gear. If you lack crucial pieces you can go scavenging, otherwise try to get the drop on an inattentive victim. As the arena border starts to close in, you might start to get a feeling for who your main opponents might be and try to tweak your gear and build accordingly. In the current state of PoE Royale that most likely means picking up the reduced phys/chaos dot node if you have extra passives and prioritizing fire resistance.

Whereas the pace slows down a bit in the PoE Royale late game, this is where it picks back up again and the game becomes more tense in other BRs. The contracting border forces campers to move out of their locations and forces more skirmishes in general. These are often highly lethal and chaotic as more than two or three parties might be involved at once.

Observation: The reduction in pace seems more accidental than deliberate as players run out of "stuff to do". The best players will have done most of the work on their builds during the mid game farming, and fights are generally avoidable unless there is a huge mobility advantage on one side.

 

Endgame:

While the endgame is the climax of the match, it is probably the least interesting part from a game design perspective. Players can no longer realistically avoid each other as the match devolves into a single perpetual fight for survival until eventually a single player stands victorious. I think PoE Royale has the potential to be more interesting than most other BRs here, as players may be forced to adopt their strategy and playstyles dramatically to combat the opposing builds.

 

Suggestions:

Increase the island size and/or reduce the amount of players. This should reduce the amount of players who are effectively eliminated during the initial rush for a skill gem.

If the above is not enough to prevent slower or unlucky players from being "locked out" from experience, you need to consider other ways of keeping them in the fight. An experience reward to all surviving players after each size reduction was mentioned by another poster and is an effective but somewhat inelegant approach.

Add more "points of interest" to the map in addition to the potion shrines and consider making them visible from an even greater distance than those. The potion shrines are a good start, but the reward is situational and players don't have to commit to a fight to get it - like with loot, you can probably jump in, click the shrine and disengage. Consider a similar shrine that spawned monsters - the experience and loot is always relevant, and players would have to stick around to reap the rewards. You could also consider requiring players to stay inside an area to activate the buff rather than doing it immediately on click. There's a lot of potential here for motivating players to seek out these points and force them to fight for the rewards.

If we look beyond PoE Royale today and which direction you could take it, I would personally prefer a less hectic game mode which allows you more breathing space to deliberate how to maximize your available skills, supports and items, trying to stitch together a unique build every match based on what you find. I do realize that this is very subjective though and might turn off many other players.

Thank you for reading, and thank you for making a great mode for a great game.

Thank you for the detailed and thoughtful feedback! I can't comment on any specific changes related to your points besides things I've already mentioned elsewhere (e.g. making early game pvp more rewarding), but you've hit on a number of things we're going to try and improve.

almost 3 years ago - /u/ZaccieA - Direct link

Originally posted by WayTooDumb

Glad to see GGG actively seeking feedback so quickly!

did you have fun playing Royale this weekend?

Largely, yes.

What prevented you from having more fun?

Skill gem rng and experience snowballing are probably the two biggest issues, as you pointed out. There's also a big disparity in movement skills - the difference between having any movement skill and none is absolutely enormous, and the difference between the good and bad movement skills is also enormous.

Also you killed me a couple of times, which wasn't very fun. If you could also tell Zaccie_GGG to go easy on me in future that would be great.

What could be better?

I think the mods on rares could probably be brought in line with the skill tree - currently so much of your power comes from skill tree and item bases rather than the mods on gear. I also wouldn't say no to the mobs in the last zone or two having more complex abilities, and I would love the occasional big boss-type mob that hit hard and that players would fight to get the last hit on.

Giving me a bit of info on how experienced you are with regular Path of Exile would also be helpful.

Total noob 3 hours in PoE never beat hillock help help help.

Thanks for the feedback, I'll see what I can do about getting myself nerfed for the next playtest.