NGL, I think a lot of this is extremely harsh.
5* breeding rate AND chance down, that's insane, combined with the stacking of happiness and health for experience + already a base rate nerf AND food cost, this is an insanely harsh nerf.
I get POF was OP, but bloody hell, this is overdoing it a bit.
5* breeding rate AND chance down
To clarify this is only in the non-breeding pens. The breeding pen is unaffected.
This decision is based on repeated player feedback that breeding outside of the pens was the main issue. This adjustment allows the pens to be useful for completing breeding logs and adding a neat bonus to the pens, but prevents the issue repeatedly raised of animal overabundance.
As a trade off we have doubled the effectiveness of shiny boosting traits and increased the hereditary nature of traits so it should be easier to engineer the animals you want.
Honestly, tying the exp gained to health/happiness is the only real change they needed. If that's still not enough, then just cut down the total exp you can gain.
I could see maybe cutting the breeding chance outside the breeding pen by 1/3 or 1/2, but 5x is way too harsh for an expensive upgrade, and extending breed times is just stupid.
So the numbers are in a testing phase at the moment (hence the bold) so subject to change.
We're playing it internally to see how it feels and whether it is too harsh. But we wanted to give you guys a good heads up before we make any changes so we can gather your feedback and adjust as needed.
So far 5x seems like it might be a little too far, so I've noted that feedback and am going to raise dropping it to 3x so it's a little less harsh.
Again, since there has been some confusion, this will ONLY affect the non-breeding pen. The breeding pen has not changed at all.
Breeding outside is the main issue for being self sufficient since it's no cost, but being a fake ironman and letting your animals grow to sell, you almost never hit your quota already except for the large pens. These changes only reinforce this.
On top of nerfing the 'main complaint' you're also implementing a 30% xp nerf to base xp, linking xp to happiness and health, which is a problem of its own, AND you're making it expensive as all hell to feed them.
This is nerf on top of nerf on top of nerf and the only direct "buff" we get is some random "lul shiny traits are twice as effective now" which does not weigh up to the decrease in rate and chance at all.
It's worth noting (not mentioned in the news post) that the changes to the way food works also increases the rate at which animal health and happiness increases since the two are linked. So it's actually easier to get healthy happier animals if you keep the food stocked.
Get rid of the food nerfs, I can accept everything else but with the food changes it’s not worth it. Also, will Ravensworn be touched at all for this or will those achievements just take 5x as long...Will Ravensworn trait also have increased heredity?
Also, I don’t think this is quite enough on the flip side for fallen seed prices. Nees new uses for the massive amount of tree and other seeds in game
Nothing is being changed with the easter egg trait.
But to be clear the breeding change is only outside the breeding pen. The breeding pen will function as normal.
Just a note they have edited the post already.
"Experience from Player Owned Farms is now modified by the health and happiness of the animal on checking, ranging from 10% to 70% of the original value, based on how well cared for the animal is."
This is actually incorrect (it was changed whilst I wasn't there). it's 70% of the original max xp, with the minimum being 10% of the NEW value.
EDIT: The below is incorrect.
So please correct me if I'm wrong.
Pen Type # of Animals (Current) # of Animals (Nerf) Regular #1 10 1 Regular #2 10 1 Breeding 10 2 Total 30 4 So despite it taking weeks/months to get some shinys currently. You want to make it 7.5 times longer to do (or 3.75 longer with the double shiny).
In your other post you mentioned dropping it to 3x instead, so I'll assume it's for both:
Pen Type # of Animals (Current) # of Animals (Nerf) Regular #1 30 5 Regular #2 30 5 Breeding 30 10 Total 90 20 But overall, why decrease the chance of shiny animals in the first place? Also, for Zygomites breeds, it already feels impossible to get some of them due to rng.
EDIT: The above is incorrect.
These numbers are only assuming non-breeding pens. The breeding pen is double as fast to get the shinies, actually it's higher than this as the hereditary nature of traits has increased so it's easier still, so if you are hard farming shinies the breeding pen is (and always was) the best way to go. The normal pen breeding is a boost on top of the original feature.
Can you confirm that 5x less likely and 5x longer are not re-saying the same thing differently? Wouldn’t 5x less likely mean 5x longer on average?
If they are separate and stack, that seems like a bit overkill :p
They are separate and they stack. However these are placeholder versions currently and subject to change based on playtesting. It is intentionally harsh so that it's easier to scale down to a less severe value.
Breeding in non-breeding pens has been repeatedly raised as a problem on this subreddit (a quick search will find you multiple threads stating this) so it clearly needs addressing, however the numbers are not set in stone and we are open to feedback.
That's because the XP you get from checking animals did not account for breeding in non-breeding pens. Nerfing both XP and breeding rates is doubling down, and way too strong of a nerf. Not to mention the drastically lower bean rates due to much slower breeding, unlocking PoF upgrades will take a lot longer.
Simply nerfing XP from checking animals was enough to curb how overpowered PoF is. Maybe make it 2x breeding time and 1/2 chance, instead of 5x time and 1/5 chance. What you proposed right now is an overnerf.
Also, while a lot of player feedback was PoF giving out too much farming XP, food consumption was never an issue. Increasing the food consumption this much will simply make some animals unsustainable and essentially become dead content, especially for ironmen. Food consumption rates should not be changed with this nerf IMO.
Maybe make it 2x breeding time and 1/2 chance, instead of 5x time and 1/5 chance.
We're looking at this value, it's not set in stone. We're open to reducing it. We went in quite harsh initially following feedback on this reddit, but the numbers can change.
The newposts says:
Breeding in all pens takes 5 Times longer.
wouldn't this apply to the breeding pen?
Nope.
The breeding pen is unaffected. The newspost change there is wrong, I've already fed that back to Shauny to fix.
Are you sure breeding pen will function as normal?
Breeding in all pens takes 5 Times longer.
With the already 5x nerf for non-breeding pens, its a total of 25x nerf. XP rates will drop by 25x due to 25x decrease in supply. From 100% current XP to 4% current XP, and that's not even considering the colossal food nerfs and XP nerfs even with 100% happy/healthy animals.
The breeding pen is completely unchanged, the comment about it taking 5 times longer is an error and is being fixed.
Get fked if you're an ironman. Food usage change is ridiculous
Safe to say this has been the most contentious proposed change from it, so I've left it with the team to discuss first thing tomorrow.
Nope.
The breeding pen is unaffected. The newspost change there is wrong, I've already fed that back to Shauny to fix.
Sorted.
This is actually incorrect (it was changed whilst I wasn't there). it's 70% of the original max xp, with the minimum being 10% of the NEW value.
That's now reflected in the post ^
Just so you're all aware, from reading loads of posts and comments on Discord, here's what I'm sending to the team to discuss tomorrow.
Main issues:
However, the XP nerf players seem to understand why we're doing it, its just the combined changes mentioned that hurts this.
I can't guarantee anything from this but I want to keep you all in the loop based on the feedback I've seen and what I'll be chasing up.
Safe to say this has been the most contentious proposed change from it, so I've left it with the team to discuss first thing tomorrow.
Current solutions for ironmen accounts have already been drawn up and designed prior to the announcement. Some of the options will be in upcoming content, however, so watch this space for news. Fear not.
Just tie xp and breeding to happiness and health and be done with it. If animals aren't fed they won't breed no matter what traits they have. How do you expect people to obtain fish or meat to keep animals fed? Raw fish is already up in prices and sometimes low in supply. At current suggested numbers over 1 million extra raw fish needs to enter the game per week (this is assuming RS3 gets 150k players do PoF per week).
Breeding is already based on health and happiness, so additional changes need to be considered in order to address the abundance problem.
We are discussing the food requirement changes currently.
Ok, so Ravensworn will not have an increased chance to be inherited from Ravensworn parents? Just double checking
Nope. Well ish, there's some weirdness in how ravensworn works that makes this a tricky question to answer.
So you're saying rather then POLLING this to the 20,000k in-game players you're all taking the word of 500 dumped redditoes who abused oof for 200m and not going to balance around asking all players their thoughts? f**king sick
Sometimes we have to make decisions that are unpopular to some of the player base in order to keep the game healthy.
The concerns about the current state of the farm have been raised repeatedly by players on reddit, discord, twitter, the forums, twitch and face to face in person with players when they visit the office. I've also seen them raised in game when I am logged in on my choob, repeatedly. Nerfs are rarely popular, but it's clear that the playerbase feel it is needed.
The specific numbers are being discussed and refined (hence the bold lines on the newspost) and we're taking on board the feedback from you guys as part of that discussion.
At first glance the new numbers might balance out well. But i see one huge problem. Mushrooms.
Using current prices of mushrooms (and they WILL rise) it costs 1m gp to grow a zygomite from baby to elder if you plan on maintaining health at 100%.
Either let us use seeds to feed zygomites or add a conversion rate to mushy mush (10 mush/mushroom).
Also, add an upgrade so we can store 10k+ foods in pens
Increasing the storage of pens is tricky currently, but we're investigating. Ideally I would like to be able to store huge amounts of food in a pen to make life easier, but it's not something we can commit to due to the technical hurdles. It is being investigated though.
We're aware of the mushroom issue we have long term solutions in mind, but these obviously won't help immediately so we're discussing the possibilities.
Ever since the beginning of pof, there have been a problem with royal dragon breeding. This was "fixed" by making Royal dragons unable to breed any kind of offspring, unless they are in the breeding pen and hit the 5x failure mitigation mechanic.
Are there any plans to fix royal dragon breeding with this nerf?
Royal dragons don't offer any inherent advantage over black dragons in breeding. They are not more likely to sire royal dragon offspring than black dragons. I had fixed the breeding issue in the past, I'll double check to see if there's some underlying issue somewhere.
Breeding is already based on health and happiness, so additional changes need to be considered in order to address the abundance problem.
But it's possible for zygomites to breed while being at 0% health and happiness. Remove that. I honestly didn't know happiness and health are supposed to alter breeding, but maybe that's because my animals are at 100% health and happiness most of the time.
I believe that breeding is only possible at 0% when in the breeding pen (due to the mitigation feature) but I'll double check the non-breeding code. It's certainly possible to make that chance zero if they animal is miserable.
There's a difference between things that are needed to keep the game healthy, and things that ignore the effects it will have and just outright nuke content into oblivion. That nerfs are rarely popular is no excuse for not having thought things through yet again. When will you realize that this careless attitude from Jagex is causing problems that then don't get fixed because you are stubbornly clinging to the past decisions?
You aren't helping the situation, you are making things worse. And the fact that the news post needed to have the bolded segment in it at all only shows how little effort you put into this entire thing. You did not think things through, and when confronted about it you shield yourself with meaningless statements. "It's being discussed", "it's needed", "players wanted it", "nerfs just aren't popular". None of that holds any meaning whatsoever. If it's anything like in the past, nothing will actually change, it will be pushed out next month, and after half a year of complaints there will be minor adjustments that don't fix anything. You did such a great job fixing stone spirits using that exact approach when it turned out to be a problem. OH WAIT, that's still being fixed!
Jagex has shown to not listen to feedback, why would this be any different? People had concerns about the comp rework being rushed and lackluster. It was rushed out anyway and ended up as a set of ninja patches rather than a rework. People had concerns that the hunter nerf might cause issues on certain level ranges and kill off some content. It was "looked into" and then it still went as people feared. Give us something to actually work with, or just stop deflecting and admit you don't care about the negative effects.
If anything, you either made the news post this bad on purpose so that we would accept an extreme nerf that's less extreme than this, or you didn't even try to make it work out and it's yet another thing that's rushed out. Here's a tip: think of the consequences before you announce badly made plans. These plans are stacks upon stacks of nerfs to something, making it unrealistic to keep it up for the average player and anyone can see the issues with it. If it wasn't on purpose to push a slightly less extreme nerf through, you should fire the person who thought it was a good idea.
Jagex has shown to not listen to feedback, why would this be any different?
We're literally making changes to the proposal based on player feedback as I type this. We're not announcing it til we're certain on the numbers, but the feedback absolutely is being considered and taken on board.
In regards to the communications, we wanted to get this idea out early so we could gather feedback and so we could give players a solid heads up. Hence we decided to do so without the final numbers because those numbers would be formed in large due to player feedback. Clearly this hasn't gone well and we'll reconsider this approach in future.
Happy Cake Day darkhearted_raven! Promise me you'll always remember: You're braver than you believe, and stronger than you seem, and smarter than you think.
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