Original Post — Direct link

I don't know what's happened this season, but MM feels worse than it ever has. I keep getting into matches that are not fun at all because my teammates do not understand the most fundamental aspects of the game and should be queing with new players.

I've been playing Smite almost daily since Season 3. I usually queue casual CQ with 2-4 friends who are all similar levels (mid Plat - low Diamond). We're not SPL level, but we understand the most important parts of the game: how to build, how to win lane, how to play back from a loss, how to play your role in a teamfight, when/how to take an objective, positioning, how to end the game, etc.

Unfortunately, there's always at least 1 player in our games that plays like their account is under level 30. These players have level 140 accounts and Masters loading frames, but are still getting Meditation on Artemis or Bluestone Pendant on a Support.

These are players that don't do the bare minimum:

-Supports that build damage and spend the entire game trying to kill the enemy Support, while our backline gets ganked because there's no peel. They end the game 5 levels lower than everyone else because they stopped farming properly after their first rotation out of duo.

-ADCs that back after every successful team fight, so we can never take an objective. When we siege phoenix, they chase kills instead of taking the objective. Or even worse, one that kept rotating for team fights and never got lane farm, staying underleveled despite getting kills. Also they have Meditation.

-Mids that never rotate or ward. They get their farm while the rest of the team gets 4 man ganked. When the same Mid gets ganked, all they do is complain. And don't get me started on secure: we'll be trying to take FG, but instead they ult the enemy Ganesha at full health and lose the FG to an enemy Janus ult. In team fights they just run away from the tanks (who have CC and defensive relics) just to die alone in the jungle, wasting their kit on self peel.

-Solos who play perfectly fine the entire game and then decide around 15 min to bait the entire team into awful fights in the enemy jungle. We should be securing GF, but instead our team dies one by one trying to peel for the tank that wanted to steal a back camp from 4 gods. And since Solo bought Jotunn's Wrath and Heartseeker instead of a Breastplate of Valor, they became virtually useless after the 20 min mark.

-Junglers who do not clear the jungle. They spend the entire game farming mid and then rotate for a gank at awful times. They always try to gank high health targets that are near their tower with their relics up. When they don't get the gank, they blame the nearest ally (who had just used their kit to clear wave). When they do get a gank, there's no farm up or objectives up, so they walk to the other side of the map, losing farm all along the way. Our jungler will be top kills in the game, but the whole team is behind in farm because of their poor understanding of the map and spawn timers.

The matchmaking algorithms are very deeply flawed. I had a teammate with a Masters loading frame and a 147 level account that spend significant portions of the game standing still and only used his ult maybe twice. How is that possible? Account sharing?

I was in a game against 3 hunters. Our support built magical defense and Pythag's Piece. We pleaded with him to buy a Sovereignty or Midgaurdian Mail, but he wouldn't. He had an account level of 138. This was not a new player.

I understand that in casuals people are trying stuff out or just playing to have fun. I also understand that people make mistakes, have lag, or might not be playing their best. But the problems I'm running into just aren't acceptable. You can't put a 1800 chess players into a tournament with 700 chess players and expect competitive games.

I yearn to play with people who understand the most fundamental elements of the game. Miss abilities, forget to check your map, and play off role picks; just please let me play with a team that fulfills their roles.

Let me play a game of Conquest, not an Arena match on the Conquest map. Hi-rez, your longtime player base deserves so much better. Fix your matchmaking.

Edited to add: 2 of the players I play with regularly have quit or taken hiatus from the game because of bad matchmaking. Like me, they love this game but are finding it harder and harder to justify losing 5 games in a row despite playing extremely well.

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over 3 years ago - /u/HiRezAjax - Direct link

Originally posted by [deleted]

[deleted]

Usually the easiest way to contact me is when i reply in the thread asking for IDs, which I havent done here yet. Thanks for linking the previous post!

I didn't come as quickly to reply here because what OP is describing is not really a matchmaking issue. Its a player behavior or playerbase culture issue.

SMITE matchmaking is built off wins and losses, there is no individual performance factor (for good reason)

SMITE behavior moderation includes lots of auto detection for issues like feeding, afking, refusing to fight, refusing to play role, and similar issues. This is all tracked and included with the report. See here: https://smite.fandom.com/wiki/SMITE_Version_6.11.5701.1#Project_Olympus under "Automated Instance Reporting"

OP can provide me some match IDs, but i suspect i wont see any matchmaking issues (player level or MMR being too highly variant among the 10 players in the match)

It sounds like OPs play group should be using the report button more.

I can provide a few reasons on why it might feel like some players MMR/Level is not indicative of their skill:

  • New Season - 8.1 brought a huge amount of new items and an entirely new Conquest map to the game - lots of people are still experimenting and trying to find their footing in the new meta. From my data this is significantly improved over time since 8.1, and matches are closer and longer on average.

Based on OPs specific scenarios given - this sounds like its very likely the main cause of the issue.

  • Returning Players - the crossover events and new conquest map have brought a lot of people back to SMITE. if they have been gone long enough theyll start at 1500 MMR in casuals, but if they play just enough to keep from decaying they might be at higher MMR even though they are extremely rusty.

Both of these factors are accounted for in the matchmaking by losing MMR through losses - if people arent playing their role, they are more likely to lose, and then hopefully drop down out of range of matching with players like OP.

  • There are a lot of mechanically skilled SMITE players who dont adhere as strictly to meta role gameplay as other players within their MMR/Level tier would prefer, as well.

  • There are also a lot of people who feel like they know the meta and the roles perfectly, but who really struggle to hit their abilities. These people tend to be the most often offended by matchmaking because theyre in low MMR but have the knowledge of higher MMR players.

Any of these possible factors could be the source of OPs frustration, likely some combination of them working together.

But I can say that nothing specifically changed about matchmaking. Casual Conquest has never had an MMR reset in the history of SMITE. Diamond tier casual players are still consistently playing with other diamond tier casual players, and the same for every other rank. Win/Loss method is objectively the most fair and is proven across a wide variety of multiplayer games.

Im sorry to hear about people having bad experiences with players in SMITE, and we will continue to work in any ways we possibly can to improve it.

over 3 years ago - /u/HiRezAjax - Direct link

Originally posted by TheSwine-

Also im not sure exactly how this game works but i do know some balance the matchmaking by giving a squad of 3 or 4 a lower tier players. because being in comms with teammates is far more advantageous than skill level.

If you had a 3 or 4 stack vs a group of solos at even skill level, the familiar group with comms wins every time.

Also Casual is supposed to be a mode to be enjoyed and relax a bit, chat with your friends and try new things out or practise. & Honestly If your not having fun because u and ur friends determine teammates are losing all your games, then MOBAs may not be your thing. Try Arena or Joust or a battle royale.

SMITE does not stack lower MMR players with parties.

The matchmaker will aim to get the entire 10 players within the closest MMR and level of each other as it would for any other match.

This is often complicated when players create parties with wide MMR or level differences within the party, though.

over 3 years ago - /u/HiRezAjax - Direct link

Originally posted by [deleted]

[deleted]

Your initial comment pretty much nailed it, so i didnt feel the need to reply right away. So id say your course of action was fine - you didnt say anything outside of normal player logic.

I havent gotten any messages or mentions, but the thread did continue to grow... mostly a place for people to vent it seems. But im not seeing any specific matchmaking information here.

Id still be happy to take a look into OPs history if they send me an IGN/Match ID - but i realize im late to the party so maybe wont get much response.

Thanks!

over 3 years ago - /u/HiRezAjax - Direct link

Originally posted by SuperMike-

Hi,

If you dont mind can I ask you 2 questions.

1) does ranked conquest affect your casual conquest matchmaking. E.g. my brother doesnt touch casual conquest and plays ranked only and is in high diamond levels. Does this mean high Is likely to get diamond players in casual or is this based in casual performances only?

2) if so, I play in gold 4 and him in diamond 2 When we queue casual together how does the game react. Does it match us with players in between that level?

1) no - they are entirely separate. If your brother only plays ranked, when he switches back to casual he will start by playing against 1500 MMR players

2) its an average - it doesnt use rank - it uses MMR - so if you queue as a 1500 player and a 2000 player - it counts you as 2x 1750 players - and the other 8 players will aim to be close to 1750

over 3 years ago - /u/HiRezAjax - Direct link

Originally posted by Sinisterniik

Hey Ajax! Thanks for stopping by. I'm sure I speak on behalf of everyone when I say that we love to see Hirez interacting with Reddit posts. I appreciate you taking the time to make a lengthy response.

When I first read your response, I was a little slighted and felt like my concerns were being dismissed. My post is about bad matchmaking, and you literally say that it isn't. But on a second reading, I understand what you mean more.

I still think there's a disconnect between what I want to convey and what you took away from it. I've also had some thoughts come together after digesting the huge number of responses to my post. More on that in a moment...

I didn't come as quickly to reply here because what OP is describing is not really a matchmaking issue. Its a player behavior or playerbase culture issue.

In my title post, I mentioned that my teammates are level 140+ and some have Masters loading frames. I bring this up for two reasons:

1) I don't know anyone's MMR, so I can only use clues like account level and ranked tiers.

2) The problem is not that I'm being matched with brand new players.

I suspect (especially based on smite.guru) that the teammates I described have a similar MMR to me. After all, we're losing games together lol.

It sounds like OPs play group should be using the report button more.

There isn't a report option for "Bad Player". Should I be choosing "Other" and describing it as bad matchmaking? I don't particularly want to stress someone out with a report notification just because they don't know how to play.

How about if someone had a bad build? Let me describe two scenarios. Would either be appropriate situations to report? Which report option should I choose?

1) Support Geb builds War Flag, Shoes of Focus, Breastplate of Valor, and Stone of Gaia before the game ends. He started the match at void camp and spent the first 5 minutes in Duo lane before rotating. He spends the next 10 minutes sitting in Mid. He even clears wave when the Mid laner backs or goes to Red. During teamfights, he chases kills but just dies instead.

2) Serqet ADC builds Death's Toll, Golden Blade, Ninja Tabi, Serrated Edge, and Qin's Sais before the game ends. She starts in lane and stays there until level 20. She helps with FG and GF, but returns to Duo lane every time the enemy Loki pushes wave up. As a result, she isn't in any of the team fights. She clears both towers in her lane by split pushing, but when you try to siege phoenix as a team, she chases kills into their fountain and dies.

I'm curious what your thoughts are on this... Actually I'm curious for everyone's thoughts. Let's assume both of these players appear to be genuinely trying.

I can provide a few reasons on why it might feel like some players MMR/Level is not indicative of their skill:

What I most want is for you to understand is this: regardless of what MMR is telling you, it is not reflecting the experience that my friends and I are having. There are other comments on this thread describing others experiencing what I have described.

If matchmaking is working as designed, there may be an issue with its design. I made this post not to propose solutions when I have no expertise to do so. Rather, I have been experiencing problems with Smite as a user and want to have my voice heard. Others here feel the same way. I'll leave it to you and the dev team to figure out how to use our criticism.

My complaint is not "bad players are bad and keep trolling WAAAAAAH". I just want to be clear about that again. I genuinely recognize that I'm playing with individuals who are at a different place in their Smite careers than me. They make the mistakes I made years ago. I see my younger, less experienced self in them. And no, they aren't mechanically skilled either lol.

Friends that I have been playing this game with for a long time have uninstalled because of huge disparaties in skill levels between players in their matches. They feel that their time spent isn't worthwhile anymore in ways it once was. Everyone in my circle feels that something is markedly different. We literally wondered if matchmaking was actually bugged because of our shared experiences.

When I posted this thread, I still thought that might be the case. Now I wonder if MMR just isn't doing its job properly. Again, I'll let you and the dev team worry about how to handle my Reddit complaints. I just want to relay my experiences. The problem may lay elsewhere: heck, maybe the new tutorials or recommended items aren't doing their job. I dunno.

Im sorry to hear about people having bad experiences with players in SMITE, and we will continue to work in any ways we possibly can to improve it.

I know that you're being genuine when you say this. Smite is my favorite game when I have competitive matches, and I love the fresh changes that Season 8 brought. I hope you just don't give up on your old player base for that sweet sweet Nickelodeon money lol.

Edited to add: There should probably be a more user friendly system in place for reporting bad matchmaking than messaging you on Reddit.

Thanks for the additional writeup, I'm doing my best to understand player concerns and take steps to solve them, and I'm glad that people are feeling that.

However, even after reading your most recent post, I still feel that you are using the term "matchmaking" incorrectly. Not just in regards to SMITE, but in regards to all multiplayer gaming.

My previous post already explained it, but i'll try to restate the most important parts.

  • MMR is determined entirely from wins and losses.

  • Matchmaking only cares about MMR and player level - we look to group players with the same experience and same skill level as closely as possible.

All of these factors you are describing have no direct impact on matchmaking. They could, however, have an indirect on matchmaking.

  • Higher player levels SHOULD know how to play their role and how to team fight

  • Higher MMR players SHOULD be able to hit their skill shots and build correctly

But this is not always the case, as MMR only cares about W/L and Level only cares about literal time spent in game.

So - you are essentially proposing a complete rework to this system to account for people playing "properly" which is generally understood to be impossible and impractical, and virtually no game in modern history supports this.

SMITE, and Mobas in general provide a huge amount of choices and flexible options to players. They are free to play how they want to play. These players (assuming you send me your IGN/Match IDs so I can confirm theres no low population / bugs) are in your level and MMR bracket - meaning they have played as much as you and have a similar win% as you.

So - in all this - matchmaking is working exactly as intended. Its doing its job properly. And I explained in my previous posts why it might not always feel like that.

At its heart - matchmaking is a truly difficult task. Human beings are not consistent. They make mistakes, they try new things, they have good days and bad days. Get me on your team on my main god and role and ill do great, get me on the day im trying to learn Janus and its a different story - that doesnt mean Matchmaking is broken.

As for reporting - use the "did not play assigned role" option - or use "intentional feeding" or "afk" if they are dying/ignoring fights to a detriment.

Send me the numbers, and you can always DM me, tweet at me, or go through olympians/community team to report bad matches. Id really like to confirm that theres not an issue (there surely could be) - but a lot of what youre describing sounds like a reasonable amount of human error within a working as intended mathematical system.