Original Post — Direct link

Alright, so I want to talk about something that's probably going to cause arguments (dear god the comments to this are probably going to cause me a headache).

Anyone who's been around here for a while knows that:

  1. CG's communication patterns are not good.
  2. This community explodes over anything and everything.

I think these are linked, but not in the usual 2->1 way everyone tends to attribute it to.

So what I'm going to propose is pretty simple actually:

CG only communicates to do damage control, and that makes calm responses to problems useless.

We all know the pattern that happens.

  1. Community starts to riot about a series of problems in/with the game.
  2. CG comes in and responds eventually, promising more and better communication.
  3. CG does communicate for a week or two and builds a bit of goodwill.
  4. CG then stops communicating abruptly and completely.
  5. A few months go by, that goodwill fades, more problems happen, go back to 1.

We've seen it happen before. Before Malak/DR, we heard nothing since early February when they commented due to people being unhappy with the Grievous rework. Before that, I don't actually remember the last time we heard anything that wasn't an announcement for something new in the game if I'm honest. Even the game changers have been saying their lines of communication with CG have basically dried up, and that they're as in the dark as we are.

It's happening again now. When everything exploded due to how they chose to handle Palpatine beating Malak, we got posts from the 19th of last month, up until the 1st of this month where they were explaining things in detail and communicating. It's now been a week and a half since we've gotten anything of note, and I have no reason to believe we're going to get more, considering past precedent.

Considering this pattern has happened repeatedly and reliably over the past year and a half or so, it seems apparent to me at least that CG only views communicating with us as a means of damage control when community opinion gets to basically riot levels, and that they'll do the minimum needed to build it back up to a stable level, and no more.

Alright, so why am I saying that this is what causes this community to be so negative and in the words of a lot of people toxic?

Because CG is showing us that the only way to get anything out of them on any issue, is to create an utter firestorm about it to the point where they're forced to respond.

Heaven knows how many bugs, AI problems, and other minor things this game has that have been around for months or years that we've never heard a peep about from CG, because they aren't big enough things to cause more than minor annoyance.

If the only way to get CG to acknowledge something is to get the community rioting about it, it then follows that the only logical response to a problem is to try to create a riot about it. Anything else is wasted effort.

Honestly it's why personally when someone from CG complains about the attitude of the community I scoff, because to me this is a problem of their own making. It's a trend I've noticed a lot in gaming. Games that have good developer interaction and communication (even about little things, or just them sharing their thoughts and ideas) have much more positive communities than games with complete radio silence. Irrespective of quality, size of the player-base, number of problems in the game.

Alright, so I'm not just going to say this and offer nothing constructive.

What could CG communicate about right now?

Well, there's actually a heap of things. I'll start with the ones there are complaints about, and then move to just more cool things they could share or talk about that would just be interesting to know.

  • They said Anakin was fine and wasn't getting a nerf, yet they then changed how he interacts with non-GR teams which in effect was a nerf. This needs explaining. I didn't even use Anakin and this still feels scummy.
  • A few months back they said they wanted to aim for more balance in arena. At that time JKR was 90% of the meta (per swgoh.gg meta report). Now, DR is 90% of the meta. Do they think they've overshot with DR/Malak's power level considering this?
  • More detailed thoughts on the difficulty of the Padme event would be interesting to hear.

Ok, now just to more interesting stuff (for me at least!).

  • Having done a bunch of 3v3 GAs in a row, what do they think of the meta there? Is anything too strong in 3v3 (cough DR/Malak cough)? Are there things that surprise them about it?
  • How are they feeling about Padme now that she's in the wild? Are GR overperforming? Underperforming? Not used as much as they thought? Is that just due to gear/zetas?
  • Were they any surprises in what people were unlocking/7*ing Padme with? What was effective?
  • What team comps are they seeing being used with Padme the most, and what do they think about that?
  • What are their thoughts on some of the team comps we're now seeing pop up in arena due to Malak? Things like KRU being used with JKR, or GMY being used with DR?
  • Is there any uptick in GG usage/viability now that people have put more resources into his team due to the Padme event?

As you can see, I don't think they have to be doing full-on addressing of problems or serious talk all the time. I'd be happy with a post or two each week just hitting some of those cool interesting topics, or sharing a few neat stats or surprise team comps they're seeing doing well.

But the lack of communication, and how reliably it vanishes the moment the situation that's caused them to communicate has dissipated, is a problem. This is a trend we've seen time and time again, and I don't think it should be ignored.

External link →
almost 5 years ago - /u/EACarrie - Direct link

Originally posted by -WDW-

I have similar feeling and will always maintain that their lack of ability to communicate will be there undoing. There are other EA Star Wars games where they have a strong community manager in place dealing with, interacting with and generally sorting out little niggles.

If I had any advice to Carrie it would be to put in a really clear and obvious structure for communication.

So my advice:

1) A monthly dev post, this could be from any of the team that gives us some stats on what’s happened the previous month and a bit of a heads up on anything coming in the month ahead. 2) A proper PVE calendar and PVP calendar of events, not this outlook calendar nonsense a proper professional post, similar to the battlefront ones so people can see what’s happening. 3) An on going list of known bugs and where they are in terms of fixing them, updated weekly. 4) Monthly or BiMonthly community polls asking for people’s views on some things they are looking at and gathering opinion from more people than just the small circle of players they are currently using. 5) Quarterly Q&A session when the road map lands.
6) Significantly better interaction on the forums and reddit etc, it’s obvious they read this stuff but very rarely interact.

There’s a lot to say here but I agree with a good amount of the sentiment of this thread but I’m responding to this part because it’s basically identical to a calendar we are working up.

For a year we have been staffing to and making the case for why communication like this is needed. I usually make the MMO analogy. But we now have dedicated staff to handle cheating complaints, a community manager, a video artist, a 2D artist, a couple others working on the communications team. But the strategy is a ton of different vectors from Star Wars.com articles to talking to beta players to in-game messaging to the forum posts to a lot of single touchpoint complaints and concerns. Reddit and Twitter are supplementary, not strategy, and most of us do it to try to help but not in an official capacity. (Also it’s a little weird for me to think of it in terms of a quota.)

But it’s also been harder and harder to be on these platforms because the discussion is getting more volatile. I worry about every word I say here because there’s a lot of anger and criticism and it doesn’t stay constructive. Usually the tipping point for me personally to jump in is when things are so negative that I don’t see our perspective being made by other players. And also I personally do it because I don’t want to put anyone else on my team in front of the firing squad. But most days in a normal thread both sides are discussed and we don’t feel the need to chime in.

So while I agree we should do better and very much agree with regular cadence of things like Q&As and known issues etc., I respectfully disagree if you look at the output of communications from before a year ago. Our process around patch notes and official comms has gotten significantly more robust and there’s just a lot more of it. We do things regularly now that we never even did before. And we are constantly layering into that. But change comes by degrees.

The other types of comms we will continue to formalize, but it’s hard to do that and maintain the output that we do. (Again my job pertains to every aspect of this game, which involves a lot more than communication.)

But as we formalize, I’ll be honest that I think about reducing leaning on these types of forum response/Twitter communications because while I think it has been helpful to supplement and also helpful for emergencies, and I love to chat and provide our perspective, there have been a lot of down sides recently. And honestly, if the regular communications were more operationalized, maybe you all wouldn’t mind either? I dunno, I personally need to find a healthy balance.

Maybe there’s a communication channel where we can marry the regular posts and comms with some touchpoint ones, a number of players have reached out with suggestions and offers to help on how we utilize Discord servers and our beta Slack and Twitter all the other channels. So I’m sure we will refine this over time.

More input like this post would be super helpful though. Understanding that most of our communication goes through layers of approvals, and that we will always be limited vis-a-vis what you guys want/expect, what would be the most useful kinds of communication? What works, what doesn’t?

almost 5 years ago - /u/EACarrie - Direct link

Originally posted by StarSon_

I take issue with you guys calling Crumb a "Community Manager," when his last reply to a thread was over a week ago. He doesn't "manage" anything, he just posts blurbs. Perhaps you need him to be an actual community manager?

The issue is largely that you'll go hours and hours without saying anything, like a few weeks ago when the Falcon event didn't show up. Your Twitter feed was the first mention of it, about a day after we noticed, and it was at least 6 hours after that before it got posted officially on the forums. When that stuff happens, it feels like no one is even reading the forums.

That’s a great example for us to compare notes. Crumb was at Celebration that week (along with a few other people) and running the booth at a convention is a LOT of work. So Leviathan was handling the day in and day out that week. Here’s where the note was posted. Is it because the forums are too hard to navigate?

https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/200259/flight-of-the-falcon-starting-april-12th#latest

almost 5 years ago - /u/EACarrie - Direct link

Originally posted by StarSon_

I did a quick search and found 4 threads and a mega thread. Even though your forums are hard to navigate, there were so many posts about it, I can't believe you didn't see them.

And, the first thread about it was on April 10th. Leviathan didn't post until just before 10:00 AM Pacific the next day. If the Community Manager can't be around for whatever reason (Celebration, vacation, whatever), how do you not have someone else to watch the forums? I believe there was an Answers post as well.

Edit: And this is just one example. It happens more and more lately. So many details slipping through the cracks. I understand that it happens (I am a developer, I get it), but after it happens, we feel we are ignored. At the top end of this game, we spend so much time and energy that when we feel like you don't care, we stop caring. But in the meantime, it is so very frustrating.

I always try very hard to keep it civil when I complain, but damn if you guys haven't made that difficult this calendar year.

IIRC, it was in the Malak build which we made the somewhat late call to give ourselves another day to work through some beta feedback. For a good portion of the 10th though, we still thought we would have it out on time. When we moved the build, we should have put the MF up anyway but it takes some work to create a separate build and QA it and we’ve been making decisions to de-risk where we can because we’ve had some build issues of late.

But it’s a fair point, the second we made the call to move the build out, we should have posted that the MF would be delayed a day as well.

One of the things we did fairly recently is put a DD over community (not sure what kind of Dev you are or if Development Director has the same meaning that it does at EA), but he’s basically building out better organization and structure for that group. Workflows, etc. I agree it’s been especially sloppy this year, and it’s not for a lack of effort. So we are now coming in with a big process machine over top.

Ask Erik how he feels about JIRA...

almost 5 years ago - /u/EACarrie - Direct link

Originally posted by DemonOfWrath

So the thing here is stuff like patch notes and the like don't feel like communication, and in fact what I feel could help doesn't have to be anything like that. I'm aware that it's probably not as easy to get things approved as we'd like, but that's also why my suggestions at the top were more along the lines of "here's some cool stats about the last event", or "the arena/GA has had some interesting turns, this is actually kind of cool (or, we don't like it too much)".

I actually liked the stats on the Malak release for instance. Little things that just elaborate on things in the game and how stuff is going, without needing to make promises or give info on potential future stuff.

Basically the issue is that we hear nothing from you guys unless it's either a patch note, an announcement about something new in the game, or when things are going really really bad.

At this stage I reckon you're going to have to just accept the criticism and anger and push through it and keep talking. To be blunt, we really don't have much faith in you guys anymore when it comes to maintaining communication, and that's only going to change through sheer persistence and showing us otherwise.

If a post comes only once a month or so, then all the frustration in that month will get directed at whatever part of it is vulnerable. If there's a post every 3-4 days (even if most of them are about inconsequential stuff, or just neat datapoints) then the same post will probably get far less negativity. I think. Maybe.

Great points. I think we don’t do ourselves any favors by diffusing communications. I have 300 unanswered PMs on our official forums. That’s just me, I know between a handful of other devs we get hundreds a week. Different people sit in different channels of testers and Game Changers etc and each outlet: individual person, group, forum - has a reasonable expectation of response. There’s just no way to keep up.

But because this team is made of people who care, we try to hit those individual touchpoints. It’s why I respond to people on Twitter sometimes, but then it highlights we aren’t saying enough. And that it’s been scattered.

Also, when we talk about intention, I think things can be misconstrued. It’s much easier to be either completely black/white or informal/low-key. Therein lies what I think the community issue is with us.

And you’re right. We just have to talk through it. But it’s challenging to face that head on. Two years ago I didn’t post ever. I don’t think I even had my Reddit account. I spent all my time thinking about Territory Battles/Wars and what they were going to be. And I had no white hairs. If it doesn’t feel different to people, then we need to go back to the drawing board. Because it feels very very different to me.

almost 5 years ago - /u/EACarrie - Direct link

Originally posted by DemonOfWrath

Yeah, I don't think it has to be trying to respond to every PM or question in the world either.

What I think of when I think of this are some of the blog posts done by some of the Riot teams about things that are inconsequential to the patching process or the direction of the game. Like, one of the coolest bits of communication I read was one where they literally just talked about how they dealt with modernising their code-base and all their tech debt.

I know not everyone will think of it the same way I do, but yeah my own vision is like the forum posts for game updates you guys already do (highly visible, standalone, you get to choose the topic), but just shorter, more informal/bloggish, and about just cool random little things here and there.

Yeah. I love this. It feels a little bit like we can’t get our head above water to do it though.

Here’s what I will do, I will not make the commitment to do this and if it happens to start happening at any point, hopefully it will be a pleasant surprise. :)

almost 5 years ago - /u/CG_Erik - Direct link

Originally posted by EACarrie

IIRC, it was in the Malak build which we made the somewhat late call to give ourselves another day to work through some beta feedback. For a good portion of the 10th though, we still thought we would have it out on time. When we moved the build, we should have put the MF up anyway but it takes some work to create a separate build and QA it and we’ve been making decisions to de-risk where we can because we’ve had some build issues of late.

But it’s a fair point, the second we made the call to move the build out, we should have posted that the MF would be delayed a day as well.

One of the things we did fairly recently is put a DD over community (not sure what kind of Dev you are or if Development Director has the same meaning that it does at EA), but he’s basically building out better organization and structure for that group. Workflows, etc. I agree it’s been especially sloppy this year, and it’s not for a lack of effort. So we are now coming in with a big process machine over top.

Ask Erik how he feels about JIRA...

While I loathe JIRA (and overly rigid structure that inhibits creativity), I am pretty excited to hand off the stuff I dislike (scheduling, tracking statuses) and do the stuff I am good at (?, Carrie is welcome to dispute me) at (producing content, dreaming up new campaigns, publicly harassing Crumb).

almost 5 years ago - /u/CG_Erik - Direct link

Originally posted by porkins_sf

What is it about Jira that you loathe? Not gonna lie, I get a little concerned when I hear people on a sw project talk like that. I've worked primarily on safety critical systems my career and tools like Jira & Bugzilla & others are crucial for knowing what's going on. I can understand why non-safety critical products might not need that same level of intense attention to detail but it's always helped things run smoother and especially keep track of problems.

I don't like overly rigid structures either...for example whenever I work with a legacy products using waterfall or spiral methods I do what I can to move away from that. But we've never moved away from using Jira-like tools for tracking features and bugs.

I'm not really bagging on the tool. It's more a shorthand for my own PTSD about the times I've had people who knew how to wield a hammer (JIRA) see everything as a nail - and the hours and hours of arcane debates I've had about "what exactly constitutes an Epic vs a Story vs a Subtask?" and other esoteric conversations that would make a mystic blush.

JIRA (or any number of other systems) are great for tracking the status of tasks, features, bugs, etc. and can be incredibly powerful tools if you do the work to configure it in a way that works with your team's workflow. I'm personally much more of a visual/tactile learner, always want to jump up and diagram stuff on a whiteboard, make mind maps, user story mapping, move sticky notes around, etc.

I remember early on in my career as a Producer on a different title, a Technical Director sat me down and told me the only way I could communicate with the engineering team was to deliver a flat list of user stories strictly in the form: "As a _____, I want to be able to do ______, so that _______." He had me spend weeks writing user stories that covered every aspect of the game (as far as I could conceive of it at that time). I ended up writing hundreds and hundreds of stories. Only problem was nobody else on the team had gone along with me on that journey and the mental bandwidth for them to come up to speed was so great I ended up blowing away all that work, building some visuals heavy powerpoint decks, covering walls with user story maps. It was certainly clarifying for me as a product owner, but it didn't help the team understand where we were going and why we were going there.

/rambleSesh