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almost 4 years ago - /u/Altombre - Direct link

Originally posted by NihilHS

Can't help but wonder if Sage "feels" weak b/c it isn't immediately clear to the player how Sage's abilities impact the outcome of rounds.

What I mean by this: When you ult as Jett or Raze or Phoenix or Breach etc., it's obvious to everyone how much value - whether high or low - that ult got you. Just count the bodies (or lack thereof).

When Sage ults, you get an additional teammate. How much value does that generate? It's going to depend:

  1. Did the revived teammate do any damage or otherwise have impact that was material to the round outcome? We necessarily won't know until later on in the round. The effect of the ult is immediate, but the value of the effect isn't apparent until later and even then players may very well erroneously discount the value the ult gave. For example, If Sage ults a Jett and later Jett secures a final kill clutching the round, I would imagine players focus on Jett's mechanics far more than the impact Sage's ult had on the round, even if but for the Sage ult the round would have been lost.
  2. What was the team's economy? Obviously winning a round with as many teammates surviving is economically desirable. Consequently, Sage's ult will often generate a minimum of $2900 for your team (assuming the revived player survives). Is that relevant? Maybe. If the res secures a full buy for your team in the subsequent round (vs what otherwise would be a partial buy) it clearly has brought a substantial amount of value. But you would not feel that value when the ult is cast, and most of us would probably not correctly identify or attribute the subsequent gain in value on the next round to the Sage res.

Her basic abilities are similar. How much value does a slow orb bring to your team? If you prevent a rush and/or allow your team more time to rotate before the enemy is on site, how much value does that bring? It's unclear to the player because it's impossible to predict the outcome of the alternative (no slow orb). It's the same with her wall in many instances.

Contrast this with other agent abilities where the utility generated is often immediate and obvious: Flashes either hit enemies or they don't, and they either result in kills or they don't. Smokes block off important angles or they don't. Recon abilities give info or they don't.

Honestly I don't think she should be changed merely b/c the majority of the player base doesn't understand her value and/or underestimates her. IMO correctly evaluating an agent's strengths/weaknesses/value is a part of player skill. It's not an issue with the agent.

I would be really curious to know what Sage's win rate looks like in rounds where she ults (vs the same stat on other agents). I would also be really curious to know what Sage's Spike Rush win rate is. It may introduce more confounding factors b/c it's a different game mode, but it would also isolate any economic value generated by her ult.

This is the type of stuff we talk about all the time! The numerical impact of abilities vs. the saliency of those abilities' impacts are very different; it's why we see agents like Breach get selected as OP quite often and Sage as UP, when in reality Breach is actually quite weak and Sage is quite strong. Finding opportunities to make powerful outputs more appreciable and satisfying could help close this gap. In regards to your specific question around Sage's win rate in rounds where she ults, it's pretty high. There are lots of confounds to control for here - economy, number of allies/enemies alive, etc. - but we did do this investigation awhile back, and when controlling for other factors, Sage's ult is the most influential ult in terms of actually winning a round.

Stuff like this is why balance is tricky. I personally have been a huge advocate for incorporating player sentiment into our balance frameworks, so that we're not only tunneling on the data itself, but also that we understand the player experience around that data. Understanding that Sage is objectively strong is obviously important, but also understanding that players around the world consistently feel she is too weak is also valuable for us to identify areas of improvement.

I love this job because of stuff like this. I'm glad we were finally able to share some of it with you!

almost 4 years ago - /u/Altombre - Direct link

Super excited to have a blog post where we can speak a bit more candidly about what we do. Balancing perception and reality is always tough, and there's still a lot we can learn about and improve on the balance process, but it's been an awesome journey so far.

It's not touched on too much in this article just due to word count, but working with data is actually only a fraction of what we do; a good chunk of our time is spent building out frameworks and philosophies for how to use that data; no amount of data is useful if the team isn't aligned on what metrics matter, how we want to use them, and what sorts of decisions we'll make off of them.

almost 4 years ago - /u/Altombre - Direct link

Originally posted by Battle_p1geon

Hey brother! I'm super enjoying valorant right now, and I'm really into data, it's so interesting to me how such complex agents work in concert in this game. I love browsing sites like lolalytics and looking at champ winrates and learning curves to find the next champ to learn. Have you guys provided a robust API like League has, and if not, do you plan on doing so?

Again, really enjoying the game, and I love the content you guys are creating. It's gotta be very complex to balance a game with so many moving parts, and I gotta commend you guys for taking on the challenge!

My understanding is that we’ve provided some amount of API, but I’m not sure if it’s at the same level of League’s or not (just not the area I work in). I’m hoping we get some solid third party sites up and running soon similar to the League scene!