[2021] Everything and everyone are OP, so now what?

I couldn’t have put this better myself (not that it’s a high bar, I’m known for falling over my own words from time to time!)

This kind of thread can easily turn in to a supernova of opinions. But @alsozara is on the right path to clarity.

The state of the game (however you perceive it) has literally just one team to hold accountable and that’s us here at Fatshark. It’s not fair to point at the peeps who sunk huge amounts of man hours in to a balance mod and pin it on them or their great work, because it’s entirely our Team here who decides on what goes in to the game. And as noted, arguably (but realistically) the most busted changes that can still be seen today were entirely of our own creation anyhow and not a part of the mod.

Nothing holds anyone back from creating a balance mod that might well pique the interest of the designers here. Inc and co. took the initiative and we rolled with it, entirely of our own volition. It’s not like guns were pointed at us and we were told to “implement this OR ELSE”. Nothing is stopping anyone from trying it themselves, either through theory craft or a modded implementation.

A small amount of value can be gleaned from a retrospective in this case, but the real value is in looking at where we are, and where we should be going. So I’d ask instead of bashing on history books, put thought in to what you want to see from future changes (as the wise @alsozara suggests).

Nope, but this is as Adelion says a natural (but correct still) answer. In a vacuum, we make things we think or hope people will enjoy, with varying degrees of success.

The topic of balance in a game like VT is reaaaally wild. A lot of ‘horde coop games’ have different skillsets to those you find in Verm. Most are predominantly shooters with shooter balancing mechanics. Those are generally easier to balance. The skill comes from positioning and headshots. In Verm, there’s heaps more depth and mastery compared to your average L4D-like, and what that results in is, simplified, a reeeeally broad spectrum of skill levels in the player base.

The vast majority of Verm players are a bit like myself actually. Decidedly average. Nothing special. Not highly skilled. They understand the game, on the surface and what it expects of the player, but overwhelmingly we aren’t ‘pro’. The majority (by no means all of course) of forum go-ers are typically in the top 5% of Verm players, in so much as their skill level, understanding of every mechanic and their ability to harness the tools they have at their disposal to the maximum effect.

In the case of SOTT being P2W, it was (I promise!) never the design to ship something P2W, and honestly for your average player, SOTT isn’t P2W. It’s different and interesting and another tool to use to bash rats in a different way. But in the hands of the upper brackets of the community it’s certainly very, very strong, to the degree that it can render the game un-fun for the others in the group.

The unique challenge I see with Vermintide that other similar games don’t have is that making content that feels great at all levels is truly difficult. Not impossible by any stretch, but not as simple as it would be in a similar title that doesn’t have the very intricate systems in place in ours.

It could be argued that Vermintide is too complex for it’s own good, and in some ways I might agree. It’s so intricate that we struggle to even explain a plethora of mechanics via the interface or tutorialing or onboarding, and players have had to deconstruct it through trial and error or even pulling apart the code to really determine how things work.

What I want to see though, and what is helpful, are threads like Velsix’s. Results aren’t always immediate, and may not manifest. Best I can do is pass them on and let designers know about topics of discontent.