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Honestly. Im afraid about whats to come. They are matching you based on how skilled you are. But skill is a highly subjective thing. How will they calculate it. The same way they calculate svps and s and a tiers? Its hard to see whether a player is good by only looking at numbers. Gameplay matters too. This player could be a insane micro player and gets kills left and right but doesnt play macro propely i.e. rotate to drake. Obviously i dont know everything about how this mm works but this is what i think. What are your thoughts?

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Originally posted by Cinfinite3

There’s a flaw to this new mm system. If the game believes that an emerald player performs at grandmaster skill level, then the emerald player will end up playing in grandmaster lobbies to climb out of emerald. On the other hand, if an emerald player plays at the skill level of a gold player, they will end up playing in gold lobbies to climb out of emerald. Basically, this new mm system trivializes ranks. There’s no point in having a rank if everything is truly balanced by mmr. Also it’s unclear how they determine whether someone is overperforming or underperforming, so you can expect to see a mess where players may not be performing at a higher or lower skill level.

Emerald players playing Grandmasters will get more Ranked Fortitude than those playing Golds, and move up faster. In addition, Emerald players who promote into Diamond will have LP gains that reflect their MMR. If they are Grandmaster level, they'll get extra LP. If they are Gold, they will get less LP and not climb much into Diamond.

Part of this change is because we intentionally make it possible to keep climbing even if your MMR is low for your Rank. You'll climb more slowly, but we wanted it to be possible. Once you hit Diamond the system becomes fully skill based similar to LoL PC and only the best players are able to keep climbing.

But because things are looser below Diamond, matching on Rank isn't as meaningful and often just results in slower search times without actually better matches.

We watch all of these systems very closely and will be tuning all of this constantly to get wait times down and quality up, while keeping the top Ranks as competitive as we can.

Originally posted by Ancient_Warrior777

Well, change my mind on this:

If my league is way below my skill level and MM match me with teammates and enemies similar to my real skill level then it will be no easier to climb faster.

Because I get mates but also enemies from higher leagues.

Originally posted by pokachipokachi

ok but are you guys monitoring the current situation? because in my experience, in my teams the person with the lowest rank are almost always the ones that feed the most. I guess the current system thinks their mmr is extremely high while in reality they get shitstomped to hell by higher ranked players then go afk.

Yes, we are definitely monitoring this situation basically daily. We also have large improvements to MMR system accuracy coming to ranked in a later patch that will make it much less likely to overestimate player skills. That system is already running in Normals if you want to see how it feels.

But, yes, we are aware of situations where a player's performance doesn't always match MMR expectation. Though this happens just as much with high-Rank players as it does with low-Rank ones, when they have the same backend MMR.

Overall, MMR is consistently a better measure than Rank at how well players will play, in our data. It's just that at the end of a match, it's a lot easier to blame Rank since it's more in your face.

Originally posted by SpyxyGG

Overall, MMR is consistently a better measure than Rank at how well players will play, in our data.

It's almost like Ranks should be based on MMR...

In my opinion, the current Ranked system is incredibly archaic, it's like a graveyard evolutionary trait of gaming that doesn't fit modern day gamers and devs refuse to acknowledge the shortcomings / implement something better. In the past it worked because nobody understood how it worked, now everyone realizes the ranks are meaningless and artificial because they don't reflect things accurately. One player achieving a rank of Diamond and another player achieving that rank were tunneled through two completely different difficulties of the game, because one of them was weighed down with handicapped ankle weights and the other followed a more smooth close to actual rank MMR. What does this rank mean? Nothing, because one player had to run a marathon with 20 lbs strapped to their legs and the other one got carried on a moped for half the race.

Players want a ranked system that has meaning, rank can't have meaning unless two players that achieved a specific rank had to pass through close to the same difficulty to get there, and as it currently stands, this system is no where close to achieving this. My fear is that strict elo based MM will make things worse and push away good players because they won't want to grind GM matches to get out of Gold.

I can 100% empathize with your thoughts here. We made the decision to have Diamond and up follow what you are calling your ideal --- only top players can climb into and beyond Diamond.

Meanwhile, for Emerald and below, good players generally climb faster, but it is somewhat possible for players to trade off dedication for ability to an extent. It peters out quite a bit once players get into Plat and Emerald, but yes, any system that has players start at the bottom and move up with have the artifacts you have mentioned.

It's something we are actually very aware of and have improvements in the pipeline to address, though we're not looking at a major overhaul in the near future.

So for now, to compare players Emerald and down accurately, it's good to know how many games it took them to get to Emerald.

To compare players Diamond and up, you can just go by their actual LP and it's generally accurate (and will get more accurate as we improve stuff).

Originally posted by BiscottiSilent9815

So rip solo queue player

So currently in ranked a solo player will never play against a group unless they have a same-size group on their team, if that's what you mean.

We definitely zoom in on the solo player vs. group experiences to make sure they have equally fair experiences in Ranked.

Originally posted by mysticalmilkman

The promise of Fortitude is a lie. It’s a grindy gacha mechanic. You can be paired in matchmaking with teammates who you can’t even queue with due to rank disparity.

It’s a hidden score for a reason. Otherwise why don’t you reveal it to the players?

Are you asking why Ranked Fortitude isn't visible? I believe it is? I'm not sure how it's a gacha mechanic. There's nothing random in how your Ranked Fortitude increases are calculated. It's based on merit.

Or are you asking why MMR isn't visible? I could foresee it being visible at some point --- it's commonly visible in some form in other games. The new icon we are adding is an indirect way of showing MMR (if you see the icon, you know that players' MMR is closer to the rest of the players than their rank would indicate).

When you are getting about the same LP for a win as a loss, that's also a signal that your LP = your MMR, if that's helpful. It's not hidden for any nefarious reasons, but I think more because historically it's tricky to represent in a way that isn't confusing. MMR can move a ton more or a lot less than you might expect because of the math involved.

MMR's goal is different than Rank. MMR is meant to precisely predict the outcome of a match and be the best guess of how you will play in the future. To that end it should be free to bounce around as much as necessary to be accurate. Rank, on the other hand, is to show what you have actually proven and earned. It's more about your past than your predicted future.

I've worked with skill systems that can predict a player will be a Challenger after only 1 match in many cases. But it wouldn't be fair to just give that player Challenger without them proving we were right (or not if we were wrong).

On the topic of matchmaking teammates vs. grouping teammates, that's definitely something we can revisit as we roll the changes out. I'm not opposed to reconsidering it upon observing the data.

Originally posted by mysticalmilkman

What does that mean merit? The dictionary definition of it applies here is a bit wonky;

“the quality of being particularly good or worthy, especially so as to deserve praise or reward.”

So what criteria is used to determine this in game? The fortitude seems quite random to me, especially when the amount given is based on matchmaking using hidden scores.. according to anecdotal statements made, fortitude functions as a bit of a buffer between the predicted outcome of the game, the end result, and the difference of them.

On one hand your MMR system is so good and big fancy tech it can tell a player’s challenger-level skill in one game and is meant to precisely predict the outcome of a match. Yet this criteria remains hidden to players and is used in the fortitude system. While it remains hidden it functions as a gacha mechanic since You (Riot) can precisely predict the outcomes of matches. Losing games you were supposed to lose result in negligible fortitude and likewise for wining games you were allegedly supposed to win..

Your system is malleable to an extent but also promotes the use of Smurf accounts because of these things.

It isn’t about promoting a player to a rank instantly; it’s about transparency on the people we’re matching with and against. Blind faith in rank (since that’s all we have to go off of) leads to a lot of griefing.

Ah, but the point of knowing your skill is to put you into matches where we DON'T know who is going to win or lose. So no one is supposed to win or lose or play well or bad. If we put the same amount of skill on both teams, both sides can prove to us their merit.

Originally posted by AnimeTiddies91

Problem is the emerald might not move up at all because he's being shit on by grandmasters vs the other emerald having a field day beating on golds lol

As long as the MMRs are right, the high Emerald should hang just fine w/ GMs (50/50, reasonable KDA, etc) and the low Emerald should be Golding like Golds (also 50/50,and normal KDA).

MMR should be a good indicator for both ability to win and ability to play reasonably well with those of the same MMR. It's definitely not perfect, and we have improvements to it coming, but it does appear to be more accurate than Rank.

Emeralds with GM-level MMRs definitely destroy Diamonds with Gold-level MMRs.

Originally posted by AnimeTiddies91

True I just wouldn't like that first time I was emerald I got put into a match with grandmasters they kept saying "gg we got a emerald" or "stfu youre emerald" not a very fun experience....

Yeah, that's what the new rank icon will try and alleviate. "An Emerald? Oh, but it says Riot thinks their MMR is as high as ours OK"

6 days ago - /u/draggles - Direct link

Originally posted by pokachipokachi

/u/draggles can we have a list of banned words/topics in the subreddit please? i'm trying to write a comment but it's getting autodeleted and not showing up, i thought i got shadowbanned for a second. (you can see it in my profile, it's the last comment before this. If you click on "permalink" you can see it doesn't show up)

I don't run the subreddit in any form - you'll have to ping the mods!