u/R0guefool I've wanted to ask, I know the balance team has every kind of stats so it's probably not needed but, do you guys sometimes take an ''eye-test'' approach to certain balance changes? Like for example, does the team sometimes watch the Wild Rift tournaments (like the Origin Series for example) and take into consideration balancing some of the champions that overperform in the pro-scene?
Also, that Mundo nerf. I don't know what to say about it, I rarely see JG Mundo lol
Yep the team keeps an eye on tournaments. Our focus hasn't been too much on the pro scene, and MUCH more on the non pro (all skill levels) player base. So the VAST majority of changes have been non pro focused, with the occasional pro focused change thrown.
Part of the issue is thinking about how we want to handle it, the game is still very new and while pro players are no doubtable amazing at the game, they still have plenty of room to grow, especially when you consider learning outside their own regions.
As for the "eye test" we also take a team members familiarity into account when deciding who will take X balance change. Such as when we decide Thresh needs buffs, who on the team would be best to lead those changes. They still take feedback from the rest of the team, and need sign off, but it makes more sense to have the support player handing them than the Baron lane player.
i think non-pro play balancing is absolutely the right path to take. as someone only in high plat, this is what will keep me playing.
all that said, i still dont agree with a lot of the recent balance changes, especially things like the soraka changes and no significant changes to under-played champs (amumu, shyvanna, asol, singed)
So those champs are a very different discussion than pro related balance.
Basically these champions are preforming well in terms of balance, but struggle in popularity for a number of reasons (other than Shyvana, last I looked she was decently powerful and decently popular...could play up her themes better though). Generally this is due to them being less of a carry, less flashy (Amumu/Soraka), and having power that is harder to appreciate or a unique playstyle (Asol/Singed).
It's also worth remembering that even though I said non-pro I didn't just say any one elo bracket. The team looks at data, and balance the game for all elos so even though we might buff/nerf a champion we might be targeting a different bracket than a single player is familiar with. A great example here is that higher skilled players are better at closing out games early, and pushing there advantage. So if we wanted to nerf a champion for high skilled play, while having little impact on low skilled play we might nerf base stats. Or do the inverse and buff ratios, or per level stats if we wanted the impact to target lower skilled players.
1) I never said winrates don't matter. I said that they're over-emphasizing them. I can be more explicit if it doesn't make sense.
2) your generalization is wrong. by the same logic, lee-sin is and always been a bad champion sitting around 47%. winrates are not an end-all metric in determining champion strength.
I think it's worth bringing up that even saying someone is 47% is a large over generalization and you are right this is not, nor has it ever been, an end-all metric for the balance team. The team takes into account: different elo groups, ban rate, player perception, some amount of pro play, item/rune choices, competing champions, mastery curves.
Winrate is often brought up because it is the most clear cut example for most players to talk about, but even when I see players discussing that, it doesn't take into account all the ways winrate can be divided.
Regularly when the team talks about balance changes we talk about all of these, and a champions winrate is just one part of that. Often enough the team avoids buffing/nerfing with winrate as the primary driver because of how it can be perceived.
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Kai'sa is a popular champion for sure, but she is far from pick/ban, and while she is a popular pick in pro-games she doesn't have the best performance for the general player base (regardless of elo).
The truth is that she is just a fun champion people pick her for that reason. If you want a strong mechanically intense marksman than Draven is your go to, he just isn't as popular. Your right that Kai'sa hasn't been directly nerfed in a while, but she also didn't gain nearly as much as other marksmen did in the crit item update. That patch was basically a buff to all non-Kai'sa marksmen, and thus a nerf to her. If your teammates are picking Ashe/MF than support them in that, especially if you are sick of seeing Kai'sa.
Still waiting for teemo ult to be like the pc counterpart, u did for phanteon, now is Teemo time. And a explanation for why the passive nerf was not on a patch note.
Not sure what passive change you are referring to if something didn't make it into the patch notes that was a mistake.
No plans to change Teemo's ultimate we think this version is much healthier for Wild Rift. Plus it lets us give him a dash!
As an assassin player probably why kai sa is harder than draven, infact he is way to easy even if i haven't played him in months. Its just that he is not hard as in pc.
You gotta be a Draven wizard. Looking at his mastery curve there is a stark difference between a players first game as Draven and a Draven player. His skill floor might not match LoLPC, but he is far from an easy marksmen to pick up.
you often mention Singed and A Sol's unique play style. And also their good performance on all elo.
Why doesn't the pro scene exploit the massive control and crazy gang potential of ASol? Why isn't Singed's very nasty and variable mechanics also used? At tournaments, they really love this kind of champions, but these two are bypassed.
The mainers of these champions are mostly OTPs. Could good stats be influenced by the MMR system, which makes matches slightly easier if there is a mismatch between rank and mmr? in this case, the statistics will be overestimated than it would be if the peak frequency was normal.
I haven't spoken with any of the pro players to hear their reasoning, so this is my interpretation.
Pros still have comfort picks like anyone else and are historically slow to change to new champions. In LoLPC you will often see champions go under the radar in pro play simply because they are unfamiliar with the champion and the cost/risk of swapping can be very high when you have thousands of games on a champion you are familiar with and money/your career is on the line.
Just like any other player they have their own perception of what is strong. And that might be right for their level of play but it can also miss the mark like anyone else.
2. This is an interesting one, you and I previously talked about the OTP perception of these champions for those interested here was that post (https://www.reddit.com/r/wildrift/comments/pq84ms/comment/hdaei3o/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3).
I don't know the details of our our match making system works, smarter people than me handle that, though I do know that a lot of the assumptions I have seen about how it works tend to be wrong. With that said at a small scale than a few games being off would have a large effect, but this champions have been preforming at this level for months, at a global scale, at all elos. If this were the case of some bad match making we would see their stats jump around, but instead we see things stay rather steady. Even when we do look at smaller sample sizes (say the day after a patch hit) we still see similar results with these champions.
I see. Do you guys see yourselves focusing a bit more on the pro-scene of Wild Rift once the game is bigger and the pro-scene becomes more popular?
Also, if it's not too much to ask, could you point out one champion change in the previous patches that was more directed to the pro scene rather than the non pro scene?
Thanks for the responses like always! You guys should consider doing an AMA here. I think there are a lot more people like me that are interested in what goes on behind the scenes for balance changes and it'd let us know more about the team.
I could see us spending more time on pro-focused changes, but it really comes down to what players want. There is always going to be some give and take with where we spend our focus, we see this all the time when you see comments like "Why did/didn't you buff/nerf X champion they are clearly OP/weak!?!?!?!?!" Some patches will have a larger focus on pro play, and that can grow if thats what players want to see, but I also suspect players want changes that that more accurately represent their games.
The tank Gragas nerfs a few patches back were some pro focused nerfs, I feel we missed the mark on these because he is still a frequent pick/ban but its tricky because for the general player base (all elos) he is a fine, but not OP pick. So any nerfs we do for pro risk an adverse effect outside of organized play.
Regardless I still think that Singed and ASol needs a little love to maybe MAYBE boost up their popularity slightly and especially after how hard Liandry was hit, seriously though I literally don't feel the damage or SEE it anymore
The problem is that these champions aren't just in a balanced state and some small buff will boost perception. Its that they are very strong, but the perception is that they are weak. A small buff isn't going to change that perception without jumping them to crazy unacceptable 60-70%+ winrates. Its an issue of there play styles being so different. Its no coincidence that ASol, Singed, and Teemo have some of the most unique playstyles, this makes them harder to learn (you don't have a familiar touchstone champions that onboard you to them), and that they are perceived as weak.
I assume you have more internal documentation, can you please make sure to put more specifics in the patchnotes? Like senna has more than just the default minion kill to get souls, and the others are arguably more important, but the patchnotes don't mention them at all, leaving the players in the dark. Did her other soul drop rates change?
These changes only effect her should drop rate when she kills the minion.
I agree with you actually (one of my mains is Singed), it's true that OTP Singed/ASol and maybe Teemo plays the game very differently and it's still effective af
Although I think you guys might have hammered Liandry far too badly, I'm not joking when I say that I literally don't see that item anymore. Unironically all 3 champions usually buys Liandry
I even swapped to buy Rylai/Morello instead of Rylai/Liandry simply because of how bad and a waste of gold it was
I think you guys are starting to hit the same problems that the League balancing team has been bumping into and still unable to solve:
How to balance OTP winrate vs general pop winrate, unpopular champions like Swain etc etc only have a "fair" winrates because of the One-tricks in the server, but in general that champ is almost kinda garbage (outside his niche APC role at the bot lane)
If it takes an honest to god One-trick to make a certain champion work, then maybe that champion needs to get a revision
Not saying Singed/ASol/Teemo needs a buff but maybe just take a look at Liandry again OR atleast give a small compensation buff if Liandry is gonna be left in this state
I personally haven't been keeping an eye on Liandry's data with these champions so I can only speak to so much.
That said it is totally possible, and likely, that the item is still very strong but that it isn't showing up as frequently because it was crazy OP before and being purchased far too often, but still preforming just fine in its intended situation. These champions are also less popular so it makes sense that their core item, while still strong, isn't showing up as frequently.
The item is intended to be something you buy for elongated fights and for dealing with tanks. If players are playing fewer tanks than the number of games where this item is the correct choice is also reduced.
Personally speaking Liandry's feels fine on these champions to me, (but we don't balance off of my games =P).
I think you are coming to some large assumptions about how both teams handle OTPs and general winrate. Both teams have access to winrate data for someone playing a champion for the first time and for someone with 100s of games on a champion. This is taken into account, its easier for some champions that other, we call this a skill floor vs skill ceiling, but it is something we factor in. I would also be careful about where you want to over generalize. I just quickly looked up Swain on LoLalytics and he is far from garbage. Mid: 53.4% ADC: 54% Support: 50% Maybe this has more to do with how you want to define onetricks, but he is far more popular as a support, and still seen in the mid lane. I have also spoken about OTPs and their effect on Winrate regarding Asol in another post here, if you care to find that its really interesting but the TLDR is that OTPs winrate is likely crazy high while the general playerbase makes it look much smaller than it is.
Like you said a revision to these champions might be the way to go, but we have plenty of popular champions that appeal to a wider audience. Whats wrong with having some more niche champions for those looking for something different? You brought up OTPs a fair bit in your response, and these are players that love that champion/playstyle, and something is lost when we water that down to make it appeal to a broader audience. We could make Singed more like Yasuo, I'm sure he would be more popular, but for Singed players we would have just removed Singed.
u/R0guefool could something about eve's first skill be changed? I would like it to be similar on pc where she has to aim the first one then use the other 3 spikes that buff themselves, so she can have a bit more damage in early.
I would like if something for her was done since she is never picked and when i play her i cant really do much to enemy jungler unless i have a really good gold lead, plus doing dragons with her has gotten really hard, meanwhile others can even do baron solo.
Do something for evelynn that isnt a nerf please.
I think its unlikely that she'll be seeing any Q buffs any time soon. She is a popular champion that is preforming just fine, who becomes very frustrating champion very quickly. I'd go so far as to say she is boarderline OP in an elite player's hands. I think the biggest issue with her is that she has one of the widest spreads between unskilled play (balanced-ever so slightly weak) and highly skilled play (strong).
She is intended to be a strong ganker who shows up to surprise her opponents when they least expect it and make the numbers work better in her favor. While lower skilled players tend to focus more on farming their jungle and try to get themselves ahead Eve is all about making plays happen along side your allies and she is unlikely to have strong 1v1 potential unless she is ahead.
Shut the f**k up pisslow. You'll jump to other games as soon as Wild Rift starts to actually die.
People care about this game more than the devs ever will while unwashed casuals like you, who most game companies pander to, will lap up other new games like the mindless consoomer you are. League is built by the diehard community no matter how toxic it may be.
We do care about our hardcore players, we care about our casual players, we care about our players. Someone being a casual player or not doesn't matter we care about players who care about games, and someone spending time going online to discuss their favorite games is hardly something I would consider casual.
Toxic gatekeeping individuals is not good for the game or the rest of its diehard community. I also don't think it's good for the fans of the Die Hard films. I'm not sure about the overlap between both communities, but I'm sure they are both great.
Well its kinda strange to not be able to do a 1v1 as an assassin, but if thats the concept you are going for ok..
Also i dont see her really as popular since she never gets picked in platinum 1, in fact i always get jungle(Even though its my third role) and i can pick eve costantly without having to worry that enemy team will get her, so i dont see where the popularity is coming from. Maybe higher elo?
She is slightly more popular in Elite play than in other elo ranges, but they are all still high. As for your individual games, the jungle has never been a popular role (though it is HIGHLY impactful especially if you want to climb).
But every game still has 2 junglers. So if you are filling one of those slots then in your individual games you account for a ~50% chance of if Eve will show up or not. So you aren't going to be seeing other players pick her that often.
As for games where you are not the jungler it can come down to several factors such as:
What’s up with jhin not being buffed ? He’s not even used in pro play, high elo and when he is is used in low elo he is dogmeat compared to the top 3 adcs. Curious do you guys look at tier Lists and take those into account? I can name 20 champs that I haven’t even seen in months in ranked because they are so weak. And why can’t we nerf and buff more champs every patch compared to the usual 5 imo. The game is better when meta is always evolving. It’s been stale since the new items. And don’t just look at rates all the time. I’ve played over 4K games balancing isn’t bad but you need to look into these champs because they are super good if you watch pro play renekton, riven, ziggs, nami, lee sin, twisted just to name a few because those champs r nowhere near balanced but since ppl suck with them in low elo nothing is gonna be done?
We do pay attention to tier lists, as I said in the above post we pay attention to community perception and do take it into account both targets for, and the severity of, balance changes. We also take into account balance changes for different elo ranges and target changes in such a way to better hit the targeted elo bracket. So a champion dominating in lower elos will get nerfs targeting that bracket just like a weak one at elite levels of play will receive changes targeting elite elo buffs.
I am interested to hear why it's always "because X champion is bad in low elo" in Jhin's case he has been slightly strong outside of elite play...where he is doing just fine and it doesn't make sense to buff a champion when that is the case.
There are some that are very popular in pro play, and we do keep an eye on it, but it hasn't been our primary focus where many of these champions don't perform at a pick/ban level, let alone strong, outside of that level of play.
I appreciate the reply goat since I’m very passionate about this since I play the game 24/7 and understand how the game and its characters operate by themselves and in a team environment. 1. Regarding jhin- you say his rates are good which first of all is understandable since you can win with any champ in this game in most Elos below diamond. Rates don’t tell the whole story. I’m guessing his play rate is low in high elo since I don’t see him. Isn’t that a helpful indication that he starts to fall off the higher you go. I can tell you this jhin, miss fortune, and Ashe are the weakest adcs in the game compared to kasia,ez, corki, Lucian who dominate. Theres no if and or butts around it. No matter if the rates are the same for those champs doesn’t something need to be done to bring them up a little? I believe we can’t just always look at rates and say ok jhin has the same rates as corki it’s balanced ! Because we all know jhin can’t hang he needs something to help him more. Good players and even average decent players will tell you this as well (maybe not regular players since they just play for fun). I hope I’m wording these correctly since my English is a little lacking(wasn’t born here) but I can assure you I know what I’m talking about. Like even bad champs that aren’t used in high elo can perform good and have good rates as you say where they shouldn’t be buffed or nerfed because they are doing “fine” but really the champ isn’t doing fine miss fortune and jhin and struggling heavily. Most elos below high elo aren’t that good of representations of a champs skill.
When talking about pro play I’m going to give you three examples renekton, riven, varus. These champs are really good in the right hands right but your numbers may suggest they are just hovering around 50% in ranked and doing just fine. At the end of the day you can keep them how they are but eventually they are gonna be in every game in high elo regardless of your rates because they are that good and ppl care about winning in high elo compared to low elo where rates could be wrong because ppl play there fav champ and for fun. But then again we have popularity contests. Varus is arguably the best adc in the game I can assure you if used decently but isn’t popular. But in a ranked game he probably has average win rates blah blah etc. Casuals aren’t gonna be good with him because you need to land your shots right. But that still doesn’t mean anything lol he still needs some type of nerf. This is what I mean by just looking at numbers….doesn’t tell the whole story. Like if you compare varus to jhin it’s just laughable lol… but with same win rates… get my point. I’m throwing suggestions out that it’s more than just numbers it’s actually in game gameplay live performance which those rates will help in determining that but those rates will never tell you how good varus actually is or how bad jhin is unless you play them at a high level or watch pro play. But if you guys want to balance the game more about the community and low elo( majority of players) which is what it feels like to be honest then it’s fine but that won’t make the game balanced( but it’s more than just about balance, you want most champs to be really “viable!) and not ever used like jhin).
This is another topic right “Brand” is so easy to use right that he’s probably still doing good in low elo but the champ is actually balanced after the nerf. Yet he’s still being banned because ppl hate the fact that anyone can do decent with him. Lol but those kids come in here complain and boom a champ gets a nerf. The rates are still good with him I’m guessing but after the nerf he deff is balanced but he’s still going to be banned. Even tho you have characters that aren’t popular like ziggs that are completely broken but he’s just not cool you know or low elo can’t control skill shots. Balancing and making most characters viable is a very hard thing to do. Maybe pick rates and win rates and all these rates need to be looked in a different light. It’s hard balancing a game for high level and noob level at the same time tho because low elo is the complete opposite gameplay. Thank you for your time I hope you consider pro play and higher elo a little more in my honest opinion.
I'm happy to keep having this discussion but I need you to acknowledge that we do look at a lot of things when deciding balance changes, and everything can be broken down into "rates" rates are an aggregate and move past an individual's experience. And I don't think you want us balancing the game that way, or we would have never nerfed Akali, who I personally felt was rather weak from the number of times I laned against her. Luckily we try not to allow our subjective experiences to be the primary guide and instead use all these things that I mentioned above.
Different elo groupswinratespick ratesban ratewinrate by game lengthplayer perceptionsome amount of pro playitem/rune choicescompeting championsmastery curves
All of these influence who gets balance changes, and what those changes are. This is the foundation for this discussion and if we can't accept that this is what the team uses than everything else falls apart.
Isn’t that a helpful indication that he starts to fall off the higher you go. I can tell you this jhin, miss fortune, and Ashe are the weakest adcs in the game compared to kasia,ez, corki, Lucian who dominate.
A champions pick rate is generally a better indicator of the player perception, not their actual power. Now there is an argument that if a champion isn't popular we should try and adjust that, but a lot of it comes from echo chambers like reddit where players constantly hear that X champion is weak/OP.
How do you know these champions are weak or strong? Let's try to quantify it because right now you and I have a disagreement and really both are just a matter of opinion. So what metrics can we use to actually see if a champion is weak or dominate? And what do we mean when we say a champion is weak or dominant? I want to make sure we are talking about the same thing.
Good players and even average decent players will tell you this as well (maybe not regular players since they just play for fun). I hope I’m wording these correctly since my English is a little lacking(wasn’t born here) but I can assure you I know what I’m talking about.
English is fine, though I'm sensing a bit more hostility than I would like from someone I'm trying to have a discussion with. Let's focus on how you feel rather than speaking for a group because I'm going to assume you haven't spoken with groups of good/average players but I do think you are the best person to speak for yourself.
but really the champ isn’t doing fine miss fortune and jhin and struggling heavily. Most elos below high elo aren’t that good of representations of a champs skill.
What do you mean by struggling heavily here? Going back I want us to define some of these things, what metrics are you using to define if these champions are struggling heavily? Let's assume that you are saying that you believe they struggle to win games. What do you think the winrate difference is between these champions and any (all?) of the ones you listed as being dominant?
Going back to what I said in the previous posts and at the top of this one, you are right that most elos below high (what defines high?) aren’t that good of representations of a champs skill. But that is why we look at all those things I have listed, we actually ignore a champions "standard winrate", that is to say the average winrate across all elos. When we are looking at a winrates we look at what it is within each elo bracket.
2.
At the end of the day you can keep them how they are but eventually they are gonna be in every game in high elo regardless of your rates because they are that good and ppl care about winning in high elo compared to low elo where rates could be wrong because ppl play there fav champ and for fun.
Right here you are talking about rates at high elo, again as we previously stated we look at all these rates in each elo bracket. Even at higher levels of play everyone still has their favorite champion and will still play ones they like. If you are playing champions stricktly off of their power and not your affinity for them than your match history better be nothing but Asol, Singed, and Rammus.
Varus is arguably the best adc in the game I can assure you if used decently but isn’t popular.
You keep saying that you can assume me of these things, but I can tell you that I am looking at the data right now and at elite levels of play, the best players in the world (outside of pro tournaments) he is on the higher end of average pick rate. Again maybe "best" means something else, maybe you mean to say that he is the best at fitting into any team comp.
Casuals aren’t gonna be good with him because you need to land your shots right.
Your right casual players are going to have a harder time hitting skill shots, but I think causal players are also going to have a harder time getting to elite levels of play and still calling them self casual.
3.
Yet he’s still being banned because ppl hate the fact that anyone can do decent with him.
Maybe that is the case, people can ban who they want. He was definitely strong before and your right, after the nerfs he is in a much better place. I'm sure in a patch or two we will see his banrate drop as others take his place.
Lol but those kids come in here complain and boom a champ gets a nerf.
Complaints on reddit had absolutely nothing to do with Brand's nerfs he released far stronger than expected so we need to nerf him, it's that simple. Plus aren't you coming here to complain and hoping for buffs/nerfs?
Even tho you have characters that aren’t popular like ziggs that are completely broken but he’s just not cool you know or low elo can’t control skill shots.
Your right lower elo players have more trouble with skill shots, so you know one thing we can do to balance Ziggs if he is too much of a problem at higher elos and fine at lower ones? Nerf those skill shots. Higher-skilled players are also better at taking advantage of his passive to destroy turrets, while a lower-skilled player will just use it on a minion. That is exactly why we have nerfed these in the past when targeting higher skill levels.
Thank you for your time I hope you consider pro play and higher elo a little more in my honest opinion.
The VAST majority of our balance changes are aimed at high-elite levels of play. And often enough we ignore low levels of play simply because champion power matters much less than a player's familiarity with the game at that level.
yeah, I just personally have been feeling that winrate has been over-emphasized as of late. Correct me if I'm wrong - winrate is the primary reason champions like Rammus, Sona, Amumu, Mundo, and other simple champions are being nerfed? Because none of those champions have great play-rates and are almost never banned, and are rarely perceived as OP champions.
Idk, I think the easy-to-play champions are being excessively hit because of how their ease of play innately boosts their winrate, and champions like Lee-Sin, who is genuinely broken:
https://old.reddit.com/r/wildrift/comments/psndul/top_leaderboards_na_most_played_champs/
keeps avoiding nerfs because his difficulty (and to an extent, popularity) skews how strong he truly is.
I also think recently buffed champions should have more time in the limelight, especially if they're not being complained about very often. Like... everyone hated Yi so his immediate nerf back into irrelevancy made sense. But I'm not really sure why Soraka and Mundo got nerfed so quickly, especially since they weren't even considered meta after their buffs and have been out-of-meta for so long.
Thank you for the patch though! I think it's a smart direction with the supports in particular, not just constantly nerfing the better enchanters but trying to introduce the hook-champions into the meta through buffing them.
Yes those champions were all winrate related, being some of the highest winrate champions at High-Elite levels of play. And there is a fair argument to be made that a champion's pickrate should be a larger factor. Its all a balancing act, and but (to be clear this numbers are extreme and made up) if a champion had a 70% winrate with a low, but still meaningfully representative, pick rate do you think its worth nerfing the champion? I guess what I'm interested in hearing your opinion of is what you think these bounds should be?
Easy to play hasn't been the focus with any of those nerfs though, or really any nerfs, we can factor that out by looking at a champions mastery curve (looking at data from players with over X games played on the champion), and the fact that we focus on high-elite levels of play for balance changes.
Looking at the data you linked I can see what Lee Sin is such a focus. But what I see is that the 4 of the top 5 picks are junglers. 6-7 (depending on Fiora who tends to go top, but is a strong flex) of the top 10 are junglers, and even up to 13 out of the top 20 (more flex picks here) are junglers. I would interpret this as the jungle role has too much power, much more other roles. Now I'm cheating a little because we know junglers have the highest agency for both LoLPC and for Wild Rift. So a player wants to climb and feels they can/should be the primary influence in each game than picking junglers is clearly the way to go. And Lee Sin is a fun, popular jungler, that many of these players likely already have years of experience with. But of those 4 that you mentioned as simple and unpopular, 3/4 are also junglers. With Sona being strong in teamfights/deathballs, something that has been a powerful strat for a while now.
And a large part of the reason that Lee Sin is at the top of this list is because he has always been a popular pick. From his release on PC, 10 years ago, he has always been a popular pick even when he was weak. Power can play a role in pick rate for sure, and Lee Sin does likely have a tad too much given his pick rate (broken up by elo bla bla bla) but that is only part of the picture.
Thanks for the kind words regarding support changes. The team was looking for ways to boost some variety in the support role and saw that Zeke's was a popular, but weak, early buy on tank supports and felt this would be a good way to boost them up without directly making other supports weaker.
I'm happy to keep having this discussion but I need you to acknowledge that we do look at a lot of things when deciding balance changes, and everything can be broken down into "rates" rates are an aggregate and move past an individual's experience. And I don't think you want us balancing the game that way, or we would have never nerfed Akali, who I personally felt was rather weak from the number of times I laned against her. Luckily we try not to allow our subjective experiences to be the primary guide and instead use all these things that I mentioned above.
Different elo groupswinratespick ratesban ratewinrate by game lengthplayer perceptionsome amount of pro playitem/rune choicescompeting championsmastery curves
All of these influence who gets balance changes, and what those changes are. This is the foundation for this discussion and if we can't accept that this is what the team uses than everything else falls apart.
Yes I acknowledge that you guys use all these rates and curves which is amazing honestly that you guys have these numbers(unfortunate that the community has no insight on these things tho,but that’s another subject). Regarding your Akali matches…I have seen a lot of bad akalis as well right since she’s a little harder to pilot. This doesn’t mean our subjective exp means that she doesn’t need a nerf… if we look at her potential and what good players do with her or get good with her…ppl will know she was strong, she was doing good in pro play and when good players use her( I’m curious to actually know how many games and how far your climb has been during the last year). I believe most ppl that have played the game a lot and have used a wide variety of champs and is very educated on champs and matches and the game in general would say she was a bit strong no matter what…I mean you had casuals on Reddit complain 24/7 about her kat,fizz,zed(btw those champs are still good but I don’t think their OP .. lol starting to see a trend here. It’s all assassins, they kill noobs and ad/ap carries and take advantage of ppl that aren’t good to snowball the game because most ppl don’t know how to peel, look at the mini map, etc but that’s a whole other subject. Regarding >Subjective exp alone is bad I agree 100% with you BUT if you take everyone’s subjective exp(as data)/ combined with all those rates and curves / top players insights/ pro play / tier lists / etc is the best form of balance period. Maybe you guys should start doing surveys or questionnaires for collecting data on the community as a whole just as another resource to help with deciding which champs need to be further looked at or adjusted. For example oh this champs rates are a little high but wow most of the cummunity thinks the champs damge and cc is busted in our recent survey Let’s take a look at what pros think next..oh yeah maybe the champ does need a little time up based off EVERYThing we collected. It’s just a theory I’ve constructed ^
A champions pick rate is generally a better indicator of the player perception, not their actual power. Now there is an argument that if a champion isn't popular we should try and adjust that, but a lot of it comes from echo chambers like reddit where players constantly hear that X champion is weak/OP.
How do you know these champions are weak or strong? Let's try to quantify it because right now you and I have a disagreement and really both are just a matter of opinion. So what metrics can we use to actually see if a champion is weak or dominate? And what do we mean when we say a champion is weak or dominant? I want to make sure we are talking about the same thing.
Yea pick rate tbh doesn’t tell you if the champ is strong or weak. Varus isn’t picked a lot but he’s super powerful 100% (idk the rate numbers but I do play the game 24/7 and I don’t see him picked usually). What makes a champ strong or weak? Movement, survivability, burst, cc, ease of use, carry potential, overall damage, range, scaling, if they need peel or not so much, teamfight, 1v1, objective control, tower damage, split push potential, escape ability.
I can sit here literally and describe which any champ in the game needs a nerf or a buff or a tune up or is fine just not from my exp because subjective isn’t important right… but from all the knowledge I’ve gained by watching and analyzing the whole community as a whole from top level to casual level. I was using varus and jhin as an example because it’s an easy comparison…. Jhin stands no chance in most situations where it’s a even playing field legit no chance no matter what the data and curves say period. That’s just one example.
English is fine, though I'm sensing a bit more hostility than I would like from someone I'm trying to have a discussion with. Let's focus on how you feel rather than speaking for a group because I'm going to assume you haven't spoken with groups of good/average players but I do think you are the best person to speak for yourself.
If I’m giving off some hostility than that’s my fault on how I say things haha I’m truly sorry if that’s the vibe you get I’ll try my best to improve on that for sure. If talked to hundreds of people about these things in chats,streams, in the game, discord, YouTube, etc etc. it’s not just me saying these things. I’ve played 4K games since the game came out in legit every region ever since xin and ezreal were godlike in the beginning of the games cycle. The game has come a great way thanks to you and your teams which me and others are greatly appreciative of. I just want to discuss the game and give insight on what I see and others see and how to help make the game better for all so it can succeed more.
What do you mean by struggling heavily here? Going back I want us to define some of these things, what metrics are you using to define if these champions are struggling heavily? Let's assume that you are saying that you believe they struggle to win games. What do you think the winrate difference is between these champions and any (all?) of the ones you listed as being dominant?
Going back to what I said in the previous posts and at the top of this one, you are right that most elos below high (what defines high?) aren’t that good of representations of a champs skill. But that is why we look at all those things I have listed, we actually ignore a champions "standard winrate", that is to say the average winrate across all elos. When we are looking at a winrates we look at what it is within each elo bracket
All those champs prob have all around the same rates to be honest lol but that doesn’t change the fact that jhin, miss fortune and Ashe suck… compared to the ones I’ve listed. Make both sides balanced out a good jhin vs a good varus 90% of the time varus or the other 3 great adcs will outperform. They have more damage, more movment, better 1v1, better teamfight, easier to use, I can go on and on. Keep in mind I’m good with all these champs and have seen top players play all these champs at a high level they will till u the same. It’s not about me it’s about bringing the bottom adcs or any champs at the bottom of their role a little higher or the top ppl a little lower to get them more even. High elo is usually defined by being D3-D2 or higher( well to decent players anyway think that) some ppl think emerald, some say as soon as u hit d4, some say only D1. So I gave you a middle ground since honestly emerald isn’t good at all lmao.
Complaints on reddit had absolutely nothing to do with Brand's nerfs he released far stronger than expected so we need to nerf him, it's that simple. Plus aren't you coming here to complain and hoping for buffs/nerfs?
Sorry if you think it’s complaining, I’m really not. Just want to make the game as balanced as can be and give insight on certain champs that need some help or don’t. I use most of the champs so it doesn’t matter to me mostly.
Your right lower elo players have more trouble with skill shots, so you know one thing we can do to balance Ziggs if he is too much of a problem at higher elos and fine at lower ones? Nerf those skill shots. Higher-skilled players are also better at taking advantage of his passive to destroy turrets, while a lower-skilled player will just use it on a minion. That is exactly why we have nerfed these in the past when targeting higher skill levels.
I agree with you on this. He’s S tier still because of his insane damage, c4 for turrets and to escape, and a great ult, great range as well. He doesn’t have much weakness when his damage and versatility is so good as u prob already seen in pro play but yes does a little worse when not in a organized game. He’s a top 3 mid in the game no matter what the data says.
The VAST majority of our balance changes are aimed at high-elite levels of play. And often enough we ignore low levels of play simply because champion power matters much less than a player's familiarity with the game at that level.
This is great to hear! Hopefully you Guys shake up the Meta more often ! Sorry if I come with bad vibes or whatever but it’s not my intention lmao it’s all love. Would love to add you on twitter so it’s easier to just talk about it with fewer words on suggestions and just talking about champs in general. Thanks for your time !
if we look at her potential and what good players do with her or get good with her
Your right she is a champion with a high skill floor/ceiling. And my experience isn't what we want to balance off of, that's the reason that we put more weight on aggregate data. Glancing at that data I would say she is currently one of the weakest champions in the game right now but is very tricky to find a way to get her into a healthy spot without being a frustrating nightmare.
I mean you had casuals on Reddit complain 24/7 about her kat,fizz,zed(btw those champs are still good but I don’t think their OP .. lol starting to see a trend here.
A few things here, I think it's hard to call anyone posting on this subreddit casual. Players might be different skill levels for sure, but the fact that they are taking the extra time, outside of the game, to talk about the game is a very not casual behavior. You typically only see this with hardcore/dedicated players, and that can happen at any skill range.
You are right though players tend to complain the most about assassins, they are without a doubt the most frustrating class to play against while also being the most flashy doing it. And even when weak they can still be frustrating or have a good game that sends people into the "X is OP!" mindset. Basically, most clips are of a champion killing another or getting a penta kill, this is understandable, it's flashy, exciting and anyone can understand the impact. But you don't see clips of a player ganking the dragon lane where you don't get a kill, getting the opponents to blow their ultimates, then taking Dragon because they can't fight you. Arguably this can be more impactful than a multikill, but it isn't as exciting to watch.
BUT if you take everyone’s subjective exp(as data)/ combined with all those rates and curves / top players insights/ pro play / tier lists / etc is the best form of balance period.
The type of thing you are talking about here is taking in player perception, this is something we do take into account (it's a big part of why you haven't seen Singed nerfs or Akali buffs despite other data suggesting we do them.) Arguably we could rely more on player perception, but to do it at the scale you are talking about is very slow and very expensive it also has a bunch of other issues that make it more difficult. This is why the team pays attention to player feedback via tier lists, and places like Reddit, this still has plenty of its own problems but it helps for sure.
Yea pick rate tbh doesn’t tell you if the champ is strong or weak. Varus isn’t picked a lot but he’s super powerful 100% (idk the rate numbers but I do play the game 24/7 and I don’t see him picked usually). What makes a champ strong or weak? Movement, survivability, burst, cc, ease of use, carry potential, overall damage, range, scaling, if they need peel or not so much, teamfight, 1v1, objective control, tower damage, split push potential, escape ability.
Sorry, I should have been clearer with this question. What I meant is what are the criteria for a champion being strong/weak? It can't just be "do they have a dash or not?", otherwise Ahri and Yasuo would be at the top of everyone's list and champions without a dash would, by definition, never be overpowered. So what I am asking is what is the criteria you, don't worry about other people here, think that criteria should be? Is it above X% winrate, Y% pick rate, Z% banrate, A number of reddit threads each day, B number of penta kills, something else? I suspect it's likely some combination of different things.
If I’m giving off some hostility than that’s my fault on how I say things haha I’m truly sorry if that’s the vibe you get I’ll try my best to improve on that for sure. If talked to hundreds of people about these things in chats,streams, in the game, discord, YouTube, etc etc. it’s not just me saying these things. I’ve played 4K games since the game came out in legit every region ever since xin and ezreal were godlike in the beginning of the games cycle. The game has come a great way thanks to you and your teams which me and others are greatly appreciative of. I just want to discuss the game and give insight on what I see and others see and how to help make the game better for all so it can succeed more.
Thanks for the kind words, and sorry if I was a bit on edge myself. Clearly you have a lot of games and have been playing for a while, I'm glade you are enjoying the game and I agree we both want it to succeed more.
jhin, miss fortune and Ashe suck
This is where I have to disagree with you, and even at the highest levels of play they are preforming fine, however at this level a lot of players are still building incorrectly. What I mean by that is that BorK is a fine first item on Ashe, and by far her most popular, but a subset (though a still meaningful amount) of players are seeing much more success if they build Essence Reaver and Muramana first. This would mean that the champion doesn't have an issue, so much as players haven't found what works best on them yet. Part of this is our own fault with rec item loadouts for sure, but I would expect the highest level of players to go outside of loadouts more often.
Sorry if you think it’s complaining, I’m really not. Just want to make the game as balanced as can be
I agree with you here, but again I wonder how we want to define balanced. Would we call it balanced if a champion had a 30% winrate but the player base felt they were in an ok spot? What about if they had a 70% winrate but very few people played them? What if everyone was at 50% with the same pick/banrates, but players felt like X champions were OP or Y champions were garbage?
I agree with you on this. He’s S tier still because of his insane damage, c4 for turrets and to escape, and a great ult, great range as well. He doesn’t have much weakness when his damage and versatility is so good as u prob already seen in pro play but yes does a little worse when not in a organized game. He’s a top 3 mid in the game no matter what the data says.
Ya we agree Ziggs is an elite/pro play problem, thats why all his nerfs have been targeted at his ability to destroy turrets. We don't want to remove this given that it is a major part of his identity, but higher-skilled players are MUCH better at taking advantage of it for sure.
Would love to add you on twitter so it’s easier to just talk about it with fewer words on suggestions
I've never been very active on social media, in fact, this account I'm using now is really the only time I have cared to get involved, I hope that helps show how much I care about this game/community =P.
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