[2021] Dockyard Week 4 - Co-Op Only (No Camos/Flags/Premiums/Tier 9s or 10s)

So, my last Co-Op Only grind was to display the New Year Fleet thing. That got done in about 5 hours and 15 minutes.

However! Folks pointed out that the Dockyard Mission must get completed to get the Repulse in the first place... so here's THAT grind (for this week, anyway).

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Rules:

Only Tech Tree ships (as some folks don't have Premiums)


Only Tier 8 or Below (as some folks don't have Tier 9/10s)


No Camos AT ALL (even freely obtained permacamos were out)


No Flags AT ALL (yay~)

Note: I have over 800 Days of Premium Time. So I can't turn that off. It's a thing.

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So, let's look at this week's Dockyard Menu:

You can see what I cleared, so let's go through what I did and why!

1) 33 Plane Kills/Defended Ribbons

-- There was nothing special about this actually. Just in the course of playing, I shot down a lot of planes. So, this was a freebie while doing the two BIG BOYS.

2) 5 Caps/Cap Assists

-- Again, nothing special here. Getting Caps gives bonus XP/credits, so if it's an easy option... just stay and take one. I cap'd many times during this run, so 5 Caps was nothing big.

3) 940k Cruiser Main Battery Damage!

-- This took... about 2 hours? Mostly I just ran the Tallinn a lot because she has advanced AP pen angles. Damage happens, so this wasn't an issue.

4) 400k CV Bomb Damage!

-- This took... about 1-1.5 hours? Using the Skip Bombs on the Pobeda was the best raw source of damage because she can smack cruisers that sail in a straight line. Still, it was a hard cap of around 40-60k bomb damage a game, so this was more a grind than having some massive game. I used the Pobeda, Parseval, and Lexington (once) during this section.

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So... these are the big ones. The ones THAT SUCK <3

5) 34k Base XP

So, BaseXP doesn't care. It's just Raw Grind. If you think about it, Co-Op and Random are fairly similar.
You might do a 12-15 minute Random Battle that gives 1,000 to 1,500 Base XP... but also do 3 Co-Op games at 3-5 minutes each with 350-500ish Base XP which equate to nearly the same thing.

So, ultimately I figured that 350ish Base XP should be quite doable in a Cruiser or Destroyer. Battleships might be too slow to get into the action, so I preferred dependability over style.

Easy math says 350 Base XP is nearly 100 games to finish the Grind. At an estimated 6-8 Battles an hour, that's... awhile. Guessimated at around 10 hours, give or take depending on your personal results/consistency.

I didn't count how many battles it took, but it's all recorded on Stream. I got a fair amount of 400-500 Base XP, and some 600-800+ in there as well.

My secret? Using Tier 8 and below ships. Why? Because Bonus XP/Credits when damaging uptiered ships.

6) 130k Commander XP

This was the hidden gem~ It tricked me at first. Why? Because I had a 400ish Base XP game and I looked and saw about 2,000 Commander XP. "Great! It'll finish around the same time as the Base XP!"

But no. I was wrong~

Why? The +200% Daily Win bonus thing had skewed the numbers when I checked after the First Win. So AFTER the first win, I was getting 600-800 Commander XP... which after 100 Battles would be... 60,000 to 80,000 Commander XP. IE: NOT ENOUGH :\

So, this existential crisis hit me... about 4-5 hours in. I realized the progress wasn't tracking well, and I began to figure a way around this hurdle.

"Could I use the Omaha with the permacamo I earned from doing the Choose Your Team event like an hour ago? Well, it's Tier 5... and I said no camos..." (TLDR, I didn't use it :\)

Ultimately, I realized that the +200% First Win thing could be my savior. So I burned through all the Tier 8 First Wins on Cruisers, DDs, and CVs.

and the Tier 7 DDs and Cruisers...

and the Tier 6s...

and TWO Tier 5s.

... and I was done.

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Total Time? Right around 8 hours.

I had my desk up to standing height, so it was 8 hours of grind on my feet during a non-work day due to holiday stuff.

My mind started melting around 6 hours in, so I was singing random stuff and laughing meniacally toward the end. I won the grind, but my sanity checked out earlier.

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Video Version is below:

Direct Video Link: https://youtu.be/h25DnsgeybY

...what?

What about what I did sounded impossible? It was deliberately done with basic things to show how possible it was. That was one of the core tenets of this.

I've sat down to give this some thought.

The honest answer is, "Nothing." Which I imagine illicited groans, so I'll explain what I mean.

The Dockyard Setup is 2/2 + 1/1/1/1 + X in general.

2/2 refers to 2 Must Pass and 2 Easy Pass Missions

Must Pass were 130k Commander XP ("ComXP") and 34k BaseXP

These were the Real Grind missions and equated to about 8 hours regardless of how you approached them

Flags speed up the ComXP Grind, but don't effect BaseXP grind

Easy Pass were 33 Planes/Defends and 5 Caps/Assists

1/1/1/1 refers to Pick Your Poison (Class-based)

Some are easier while others are traps/HARD

Cruiser Damage and CV Damage were easy


Destroyer Spotting and BB Potential were not/Long

While some folks may gravitate toward Class Exclusivity, this encourage diversifying your playstyle to allow multiple "wins"

X refers to the Challenge Mission

Ranked/Randoms Only - so off limits for this personal challenge I set

Could be labeled as an "or"-style mission with a very hard to reach Co-Op goal? Would require research/implementation.

So, the trick is identifying the Easy "Pick-Your-Poison" missions, and then just buckling up for the long haul.

Base XP is unavoidable grind which is uneffected by Mode: Co-Op/Random/Ranked/Scenario. While you can reliably get 1-1.5k in Randoms/Ranked/Scenarios, the time taken ends up equating to what Co-Op would provide. Overall, Base XP is similar in terms of player time spent.

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Point of Note:

XP/ComXP/FreeXP are more starved than Random/Ranked/Scenario. Why? Because of Return on Investment being forcibly limited.

Use of Expendable Camos/Flags returns roughly 1/3rd of what can be achieved in other situation, so it makes Co-Op an expensive place to gind those specific things. Without Premium Time the Grind would have been extended a little over half again to about 12 or 13 hours just on the requirement of Commander XP, because our limitation of "No Camos/Flags" meant that our only way of inducing a bonus to avoid this limitation is the First-Win-of-the-Day bonus. Which, I ended up using as a way to save time.

Ultimately, my decision to go all 8 hours in one sitting was the biggest frustration point for me. I could have simply done the grind across several days and utilized the First-Win bonuses at my leasure. However, I didn't want to break up the experience of the time trial, so I chose to commit and finish out directly. Still though, if I hadn't had Premium Account then I'd highly recommend the grind be only done with First-Win Bonuses available.

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Second Point of Note:

The use of Permanent Camo would have been a big difference for the duration of time when I was NOT utilizing the First Win Bonus. The addition of 50% more Commander XP (it's additive, not multiplication) would have mattered a lot during my first 4+ hours. While I was able to finish the ComXP grind about 4 battles after the BaseXP grind, it still would have been a very welcome increase that was a "burned" resource like expendable camos/flags would be.

I was actually very frustrated by my restriction on Camos, because I've earned a large variety of free perma camos through events over the past 2.5 years. So seeing ship after ship and disabling the free camo on it before I played it was quite irksome.

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Ending Point:

The real question I believe you are asking is, "Is 8 hours of Grind ok?"

This is a tough question to answer, so I'll simply say "Yes" and give you a functional example for perspective.

In a study with 2 groups of children:

* Group A was given paper and crayons and asked to color pictures. After finishing a picture, the researcher asked for another, and the kids were often motivated to continue drawing simply for the fun of it. Eventually, they stopped when they weren't interested.

* Group B was given paper and crayons and asked to color pictures for 25 cents each. This group was much more inclined to keep drawing pictures, even after the desire had faded. Also important is that when the researchers stopped offering the reward, the children immediately stopped drawing pictures. As there was a reward previously, doing a task without the reward generated no interest at all.

Results: If there is a Reward-Incentive, most people will no longer do the task for the sake of doing the task. They will instead become Reward-Motivated and cease doing the task without one.

Now take that concept and apply it to our GAME. It is a Game. It's Fun. However, folks have learned to require a Reward as a motivating factor to ALLOW THEM TO PLAY.

To give an example of that, I was talking with someone about this concept and I gave them an extreme example. "If I gave you a Press Account with every ship unlocked, every Resource Max'd out, and every unlockable/attainable thing already gotten... would you play the game?" They said, "No. I'd make a new account."

While this does not describe all people, it is a very noticable pattern among some folks that enjoy grinding. So part of the grind of a Dockyard is to give a prolonged incentive structure which allows constant play.

As with any Free-to-Play game, you can pay money to progress faster along a route/path, so elements of the Dockyard can be skipped if a player wishes. Or, players could simply play the game and grind the Dockyard with no intentions of finishing it, such as folks that only want the Repulse for free and nothing further. Or they could ignore the Reward-incentive loop and simply play. All of these are options.

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Does that answer your question?

No. The purpose of my doing this was as an empathetic act to a section of my community that feels ignored/undervalued.

I am endevouring to show that this is possible, even if rather unpleasant conditions where Premiums and Permacamo and Flags and Alternative Modes (including Scenarios) are not available. The reason I have been as extreme in my limiting myself to Co-Op Only and such is because I have been told by several people here that they will not even play Operations as they are worried they will restrain their team with a lack of experience.

I am not a game designer for WarGaming, but I AM a Community Manager. This means it's important for me to understand my Community so that I can represent their situations and interests to the company, just like I need to represent the company's situations and interests to my Community.

To be fair, "Fun" wasn't the purpose of this outreach. Fun for me would have been to just play Ranked on stream for a few hours over a few days.

I would've completed everything for the Dockyard without even thinking about the Dockyard existing. It would never have been a barrier to me to be broken down. Instead it would be a side-quest that my gaming habit would normally complete.

I think Scenarios being used in Dockyard stuff would be great. The only issues I can foresee is that Operations are a "known" quantity. Some folks can get absurd amounts of damage with repeatable precision, as well as high amounts of whatever flag/camo-able resource.

This could cause a large outlier effect which would either

Force the Scenario to be an "Or" condition with likely a higher goal/target because scripted play should be expected to give consistent results


Increase the base win conditions for the standard mission, which just means more grind for non-Scenario runners.

Innovation is great, but there's still coding and ramifications for changes like that. I'm sure there's a way to see Scenarios find a home in the rotation, so that's certainly an area I can inquire into, but please don't see it as an easy quick-fix solution.

One very serious drawback to this idea is that players have a tendency to Min-Max. They will examine the options, find THE BEST WAY through the obstacles, and then REQUIRE that they have access to that best way as a baseline.

While Co-Op only players have made their decision regarding their playspace of choice, this isn't to say there wouldn't be people that would feel REQUIRED to Division. Folks outside of a clan and people that prefer to play solo could rightly express issue with this, which means while we're delivering a solution... we'd also be delivering a problem.

I can assure you that this pain point is real as it was brought up as recently as my "New Year Fleet" grind. I used a div mate to snipe down a CV that I spotted while in my own CV. Folks agreed that while this was an innovative approach, it required a div-mate so it was considered an unworkable solution for some.

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Ultimately, my goal isn't to uncover some buried treasure I'm not aware of. I played PvE only for about 3 months when I was burned out on PvP, so I'm very familiar with the mode.

My purpose is to find the specific pain points that folks in this community are having and see if I can eliminate them or find work-arounds that are acceptable. Ultimately, I'm still researching that, which is the other reason why I'm doing this.

Why are you doing the two hardest Class Missions for Co-Op in Co-Op? Why not do the Cruiser mission which is just "shoot stuff a lot" and the CV Mission? If you don't have good mechanics in CVs, this is certainly an easy way to practice your bombing runs. Once you learn how to drop a target, you should average 10-40k damage per match and finish the grind fairly quickly. The Base XP requires like 80-120 matches anyway, so you've got a fair amount of time on your hands.

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If you do not have CVs and are not interested in playing them, I'd recommend that you take a Battleship with the Slot 4 Propulsion upgrade and a Spotter Plane.

Using the Spotter plane, you can turn it on before you see any bots and fire off a round or two. Bots often fire at the first thing they see, so you can forcibly spot yourself and receive incoming fire as early as possible from as many targets as possible.

Go full speed forward from battle start and don't stop so that you can get the most Potential Damage. As well, you might rip apart Cruisers up close with your Battleship guns, too.

Note: I can't recommend this because you have no control over what the bots will elect to shoot. In Randoms or Ranked, people LOVE to shoot Battleships to set fires and get damage. Those modes are going to be the best choice as you can just go to a flank, point your nose at the enemy, and receive incoming fire dependably.

Perhaps the easier question to answer is: "What amount of time/difficulty do YOU feel is correct for a grind?"

Asking me what I consider is correct has yielded a "I'm ok with 8-12 hours, because that's a normal/low amount of effort for my playstyle". I don't think you enjoyed getting this response.

So I'm asking YOU. What do you consider is a correct amount of grind/time/effort?

Can you clarify what you're saying here? Are you speaking for or against a Group Mechanic idea? If you can give examples of what you're talking about, that would be helpful.

If you do not have CVs and are not interested in playing them, I'd recommend that you take a Battleship with the Slot 4 Propulsion upgrade and a Spotter Plane.

Using the Spotter plane, you can turn it on before you see any bots and fire off a round or two. Bots often fire at the first thing they see, so you can forcibly spot yourself and receive incoming fire as early as possible from as many targets as possible.

Go full speed forward from battle start and don't stop so that you can get the most Potential Damage. As well, you might rip apart Cruisers up close with your Battleship guns, too.

More players in Ops isn't a problem. It's more the 10+ kills, 250-350k damage, 2k Base XP every-game Outliers that are.

While you are correct, there could be a small-to-insignifcant portion of the population that can repeatedly achieve those results, when such methods become "the new norm" you will see Players quickly gravitating toward hard-grinding Op groups. Players can adjust their behavior to new norms/best practices with remarkable speed.

The question is if this "new normal" would force the base grind numbers to be increased. If so, the Randoms/Ranked/Co-Op groups would have a steeper hill to climb.

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It's certainly an idea that could be looked at, especially for like Potential Damage which isn't something a player has direct, repeatable control over.

Yes, but it's worth remembering that "Or" conditions take up visual/mental space. If Missions start moving to 3+ versions of how to be completed, that might be a bit defeating/odd to a player that wants a more straightforward experience.

As Dockyards have typically 9 missions per stage and only require 6 to be completed, adding other ways of completion via adding an extra mission or two could be an option instead. However, there's still the need for a straightforward/streamlined interface that's readable, and having a large pages filled with options could be self-defeating as some folks may feel overwhelmed with options. Decision Paralysis is a thing in this industry, so "too many options" can be a burden at times.

While neither of these are great for Co-Op, both are great for Randoms/Ranked.

DDs getting Spotting Damage is a normal, routine thing.


BBs getting Shot At is a normal, routine thing.

There are two missions (Cruiser and Carrier) that are extremely doable in Co-Op which allows for a 6 mission path to success for a player that restricts themself to Co-Op Only.

You're suggesting a "Tab" or "Toggle". I did a mock-up in Paint just now. Something like this, yes?

Would it help if I made a video explaining how to bomb a target in Co-Op?

Yes, I can understand the issue there.

Um, just one more question. Have you tried Tier 6 CVs?

It sounds like you may have tried a Tier 8 or 10 CV after the Rework and been caught in a flak wall. While Tier 6 CVs can experience that when they see Tier 8s as a bottom-tier, there's much less Flak in the lower tiers as it's still a learning experience. You should be able to make attacks on lower-tier targets without having to make crazy movements.

This video can explain the Mouse/Keyboard aiming that could also be an issue. The Mouse is the "fine" aiming, so it's usually used for slower motions and refining attacks instead of the hard turning of the keyboard.

Direct Video Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRy1lD84DIk

I realize this. That's why I did the challenge this entire thread is based off of. I do only Co-Op for all of this week's Dockyard session. No camos, flags, premiums, or Tier 9+.

The problem isn't that the Dockyard isn't doable in Co-Op. It IS. I did it.

The problem is that for players that do not have a CV playing skill set, the Destroyer and Battleship missions for this week at really, REALLY poor choices for a Co-Op situation.

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I had not considered the not-able-to-play-CV issue from a physical perspective.

A) lacking the timing for the drops


B) the motion sickness that prevents some from playing them entirely.

This does skew the situation.

The German Bomb Reticle is kinda straight down below the bombers. It can be hard to look ahead and watch for flak, but also see the reticle at the same time.

Try scrolling back on your mouse well can pul the camera back from your planes, and you can angle the camera to you can see ahead as well as the tip of the reticle.

When you are close and going to do the bombing, just look down and use the reticle normally then as though it was a bombing gunsight.

@Asym_KS The above post is hard for me to read. Please give me at least some reference to what the numbers/bullet points are in response to.

I've read it twice and I think I've discerned it, but it was not natively something I could read.

In reference to farming Potential Damage in Co-Op. Yes, it's a bad option and could math out to over 150+ Co-Op Battles, so this is absolutely not something I'd recommend.

I do recognize that the DD/BB missions are not Co-Op Friendly, but I don't have the means to address that.

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I did have a recommendation from a co-worker, though. Turns out he farmed the Potential Damage in Co-Op with a 3-man Division. They grouped up and just let the bots shoot at them for a while. Having 3 players in one spot meant at least one of them was more likely to be attacked, and they'd all get Potential Damage at the same time.

It's hard for me to recommend that because it's... just sitting in a spot being shot at for minutes/hours :\ So, it's a "functional" solution, but it seems extremely not interesting.

I didn't really understand this section. Less Games = Less Revenue... how? In the sense of less Camos/Flags being used? In Co-Op, those really shouldn't be used in the first place due to the decreased return on investment over other options, though I suppose they're valid if you are Co-Op only. PvE players should look to use them in Scenarios for best return, though.

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A large problem with "accuracy" is going to be having players that don't have good accuracy. Or ships that are innately inaccurate and wouldn't be usable due to dispersion issues.

The functional equivalent of what you're looking for is better represented as "X amount of damage in a single game", which is a challenge mission. Jump the bar once and you're done with it, but the bar might be set higher than is easy to jump.

I have never marketed myself as an average player. I have no intention of doing so, either. And unfortunately, no, I am not a Professional Gamer. There are some that do that and the lion-share of their income is provided from salary or earnings resulting from their playing games.

I'm a Community Manager, so I'm paid to be a go-between from WarGaming and the NA Community. My ability to play is a good bridge to allow me to connect with folks on the other side, though. My background in streaming helps me in communicating live via Twitch, too.

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Regarding making the Grind less demanding/faster to achieve. "The Dockyad Missions could take 2 Weeks instead of 1" and such.

I did answer this in a previous response to you. There are people that need a Grind to be able to play. This means that events need to be constant, and they need to last long enough to give a solid amount of play-session for those that are the more involved gaming base. When you cut the time in takes to do things in half, then you have a playerbase that feels like they're "done" in half the time. While this is perfectly fine when for players that are not reward motivated, it is a problem for those that are.

Just as a side note: The missions are typically developed on an "Expected Amount of Games to complete". Randoms/Ranked are assumed at a 50% win rate, so "Win 2 games" = 4 Battles.

The 35m Potential Damage in a Battleship mission was likely mathed out to about 15-25 games (2-5 hours playtime) as a Battleships can routinely get around 1.5m-ish Potential Damage as long as it doesn't get citadel'd or torpedoed badly. The problem in this instance is that "Time Expectation" does not translate to Co-Op due to bot prioritization and players killing bots quickly. In this situation, you might expect a Battleship to require over 150 Co-Op matches, which could translate into 15 Hours of playtime (which is definitely an issue).

This is... the response to the question I asked?

"What do you consider is a correct amount of grind/time/effort? (8)"

Oh! I just saw the numbers! You... edited them into my post-quote? Well that would've been helpful to recognize earlier :\

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Ok, so... that's not information I can use. Requesting that the entire game be altered and given a scoring/efficiency system is going to be a major ask for... a different way to do the same thing we're already doing.

Ultimately, I'm asking you what is the correct amount of grind/time/effort that is going to fulfill you, but also fulfill the person that plays half as much as you... and the person that plays three times as much as you. That number needs to work for all three, unless you're suggesting there be a playtime tracker that dynamically lengthens/shortens grinds based on player activity? Note: Said Tracker would immediately be removed due to cries of "Why does he have to do less then me?!"

So, problem #A. If we're making an Or mission, there needs to be an expectation that both X AND Y will take roughly the same amount of time/effort. Why? Because the time is key component in all this, not the tasks specifically.

The mission you're proposing would look something like:

"Deal 2 million Damage
Tier 5-10
OR
Deal 6 million Damage (across all Division members)
Tier 5-10 (Division)"

If the Division was only 4 million damage, for instance, then you'd have people feeling "Divisions are Mandatory", even though they aren't. The "Best" way magically gets treated as if it's the "Only" way, and the folks that don't have Divs handy can feel rather left out/upset over that.

It's great when it works out. US DDs are definitely the way to go for smoking your spawn-mates and grabbing a little spotting before they push through the smoke.

For me, I did the Cruiser and Carrier missions. Those were the easiest to do. However, Destroyer looks to be the best alternative.

I've also been told French Battleships with Engine Boost have the best chance of getting close enough to take action and get Potential Damage (unless you have a Georgia to use).

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This is a link to a player that was able to complete the Destroyer mission using smoke:

So, I went ahead and recorded a video example:

Direct Video Link: https://youtu.be/fvEw1LayGRE

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While I was able to get about 25k Spotting Damage this run, it's not a guaranteed thing. Still, this can be increased if you have friends that can Division with you and sit in your smoke screen while you spot the bots.