[2022] Removal of Subs from COOP

Is the core issue of your post that you feel a Submarine is too much of a threat? Because of the pinging/homing torps?

Co-Op gunners used to be dead-on accurate. Every enemy ship was a threat in terms of gunnery, though the basic pathing/behavior made their play predictable and out-playable. The fact that the Submarine is accurate harkens back to the way every ship was accurate... so I'm not quite seeing the issue. Is it more that the Submarine feels "too accurate" compared to the inaccuracy of the other bots?

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As for how to deal with AI Subs, you just kill them. The AI stays on the surface and the pings give the Sub's location away. Shoot where the ping came from and damage the Sub. They use the same form of AI as the other bots, so they mostly go forward to fight/die like other things.

If you are playing a Sub, it may be hard to land much damage in a higher level environment but they aren't Tech Tree ships that require XP. Their use in Co-Op is for feeling out mechanics in a more straightforward setting or just playing for the sake of fun in a straightforward setting.

I'm reading your post and think we're likely talking past each other in terms of "Practical" and "Ideally".

In a practical perspective, Co-Op is mostly a shooting gallery at the moment where the bots are fodder to be exploded quickly.


In an ideal perspective, Co-Op has been requested to have danger as well as the ability to brawl consistently.

You're describing that you like the shooting gallery aspect of Co-Op, but there are a lot of players that miss the Danger from bots with accurate guns. A Des Moines getting one shotted through the bow by Yamato AP, for instance. A Submarine shooting homing torpedoes is probably the only fairly accurate thing in Co-Op at the time (though bots do get kills via "Accuracy through Volume of Fire")

This would be a natural and constant choice if Bot Accuracy finds its way back to pre-10.6. Ships were forced to play in a non-rush fashion because of accurate gun threat.

I'll be honest in that I don't see the purpose of this statement. Subs being designed for Randoms doesn't stop them from being able to participate in Co-Op. Players can torpedo enemy ships and Bots can torpedo Players. The Subs may be at periscope depth, but they do so on the surface of the water where they can be constantly bombarded/damaged.

Also, remember that rewards are doled out by % of a ship killed, so dealing 4k damage to a Sub is like dealing 20k+ to a Battleship.

I don't work with the Devs in that manner. My creation of ASW Tactics is purely me trying to be helpful. I'm aware of what counterplay options we are trying to use, so the ASW videos highlight what options are available through using those tools.

The last part is just something I'm not quite understanding. When you're saying "Balanced for Randoms", I'm guessing you're talking about like... the back-and-forth of the interactions? The dance of dealing with a sub, if you will?

When I read "balanced for Randoms" my head moves to a few points:

Health/Tankiness

This would be under an expectation of being attacked by [X] amount of players in a 12v12 situation over [Y] minutes of expected match duration

Damage Output

This would be under an expectation of amount [Z] amount of times against a player density of ~5-7 depending on flank split during a 12v12.

Depth Timer

This doesn't really matter as the Submarine AI just sits on the surface (albeit at Periscope Depth) so this facet of play really isn't used.

So, I'm assuming the biggest issues are:

Tankiness

Subs are just very tanky atm. The coming Update will increase Depth Charge damage which should help, though HE is an option since the Bots are also near/on the surface in Co-Op

Accurate Damage

Pings are not a guaranteed hit, but they are likely the most accurate damage source of the other enemy types available.

This can certainly hinder the person being attacked, but it is ideal for 2+ friendly ships to die to avoid zero'ing out the bots. Player death is expected and should be a planned for/understood thing.

I'm still not seeing what is unique here. You are being focused by the enemy. The "enemy" includes a sub, which is also focusing you. It is ok to be focused by the enemy.