[2021] WG, sit down, we need to talk submarines.. yes, this is an intervention...

Submarines are still in Testing, and Homing has being adjusted over the past several patches. Please expect changes and iterations as testing continues.

If you are having trouble with being too close to use Homing, perhaps switch to the Dumbfire option and lead normally?

These are all things employed in the process of Balancing.

Battery Depletion has no realistic tie to being Detected, but it allows for Detection to be a slow, constant problem for a Submarine. Due to the capabilities a Submarine has in regards to staying undetected, Surface Ships having additional interaction capability is part of the back-and-forth of gameplay.


You have expressed your dislike about Operational Depth not having self-spotting. However, encouraging a solo Submarine to Periscope or Surface Depth makes them more able to be interacted with when detected from sight, hydro, or radar. Depth Charges impact Submarines at Depth, but forcing a Sub to surface makes it vulnerable to shellfire before it can dive.

As a Sub still receives Team Spotting at Operational Depth, the Sub Driver can elect to operate in/around allied ships

Submarines can be RPF'd at Operational Depth because this is a Game. While Radio Location is a thematic name that a player can intuit, the Game World is a Game World.

Gameplay Interaction shows that RPF giving information on a Sub's position is workable, and the Sub can go to Maximum Depth to avoid RPF if it wants.

Initially, German Submarines were treated as the close-in knife fighter Sub. However, due to a lack of rear Torpedoes on the Tier X, the concept was switched during our testing... and is still under testing.

As for the power of the German Depth Time Consumable in forcing a US Sub to the surface, you are correct. US Submarines are more vulnerable in this sense and would be best played with allies nearby that can assist when hunted by an aggressive German Submarine. This is a play condition that a US Submarine accepts on entering battle and should be wary of getting caught by.

At Tier VI, you would be advocating for a 5 knot underwater speed, and a 35 knot surface speed.
At Tier X, you would be advocating for a 20 knot underwater speed, and a 40 knot surface speed which is faster than some Destroyers.

Subs already have an ability to disappear from RPF and all forms of non-Sub spotting by going to Maximum Depth. What is the need to outrun some Destroyers as well? Also, while 5 knots may seem a reasonable number in terms of a historical concept, the play experience would be extremely awkward.

Part of having multiple Classes to play, and multiple iterations of each class is to provide a variety of gameplay options. If you are looking for something faster, you should certainly consider playing a Destroyer.

Detection is artificially large for reasons of Gameplay interaction


Feel free to suggest Captain Skills you feel are balanced and worthy of replacing the existing ones.

You can always find the "Torpeo Detectability Range" in the Tooltip from hovering over your Torpedo Weaponry in port. Balao is 2.4km, and U-2501 is 2.2km.

There's no reason to assume positioning with your fleet involves you hiding behind a Battleship.

You can play the frontline with an allied DD and work as a team. You don't have to only play as a solo asset that hunts the enemy in their spawn.

There is a community belief that we balance to popularity figures, but that is wrong. We're balancing off interactions and gameplay data. Submarine feedback has indicated there need to be more possibilities for interactions to happen between surface ships and subs.

As such, driving the submarine up to periscope depth when it wants to self-spot makes it vulnerable to shellfire when radar'd, detected, or hydro'd. While depth charges are another way of interacting with subs, they are not singlehandedly enough depending on the situation.

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The OP is voicing upset at their reduced ability to operate independantly. Also, to operate Safely while independant. This is noted by their describing surfacing from being blind to enemy positions outside of their Hydrophone range and then getting radar'd, detected, and hunted.

However, being radar'd, detected, and hunted... is intended when a submarine is isolated and alone. Destroyers have no problems charging a submarine that is positioned away from allied ships, because there are no guns to stop them from camping and depth charging a sub. RPF allows the DD to find the sub if they are above Maximum Depth, which means an isolated submarine can get themselves into an extremely unpleasant situation.

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The beauty of the game is that options are available for all sorts of play. Players can be amazing in the unexpected ideas they create that can completely alter the game.

You CAN go solo, but no one ship is able to do everything. This is by design. It can be overcome, but it's not designed to be easy to do so.

As for working a flank with a Destroyer teammate... well, teamwork makes the dream work in many cases. It's a different way to play, but it's not a Bad way to play.

Community belief or no, complaining doesn't alter the game. Problems do. Complaining is helpful in finding problems, however, as big pain points are typically things needing to be addressed somehow.

Submarine interactions needed to be expanded, so ASW was brought to all the ships in the game. Still, having the ASW didn't address enough situations, namely that part of "counterplay to Submarines" revolved around detecting them in the first place.

Radar not being useful when a Submarine is "Aerial Detection" spotting a Radar Cruiser from operational depth is a problem. It goes against the counterplay concept. Also, it further incentivizes the sub not to come to the surface which is where shellfire is dangerous. Altering Operating Depth to require outside spotting encourages submarines to enter danger by being on the Surface or at Periscope Depth when forced/isolated.

Note: Being able to shoot at a submarine has nothing to do with sailing in a straight line.

Yours is, but when I write something it's read by the playerbase at large because I work for WarGaming now. This means I have to be expansive to try and get the information out.

As a pun, I'm well known for Ahskance'plane'ing. I tend to talk about topics for overlarge periods of time because I enjoy the depth of the topic.

Subs can operate with independance. That is absolutely a thing they can do. That doesn't mean that the island-holding Radar Cruiser has to be ok with being spotted from a depth they can't radar and eating a full broadside of torps without response.

The fantasy of the submarine is to be a stealth assassin that outplays and outfoxes all the enemies. That's fine in a PvE game where the computer doesn't care if it loses, but in World of Warships every ship is helmed by a player. They want an interaction, even if it's just being able to shoot at a sub that disappears after being radar'd, and throwing some depth charge planes at its last known. It doesn't mean the radar cruiser can't eat a lot of torps in the process.

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And yes, I do actually believe "The beauty of the game is that options are available for all sorts of play".

League of Legends, which I reference a lot in game discussion, had a map and some champions... and no set way to play. Yes, there was a win condition of killing the enemy base, but other than that... just go forth and do what you're going to do. Players did that for years. They played in unconstructed space and figured it out as they went~ Eventually a meta emerged, and although the developer didn't want to endorse a locked in playstyle... the style the pros used stuck and is common for League now.

Right now, Subs have no defined role other than to be a sub and do submarine things. They're new, and they can do whatever the player can imagine and pull off. It'll be a new frontier for a while as folks learn all the subtleties and such. Eventually a meta will evolve, and folks will mostly adhere to that, but subs are like CVs in that they have access to a lot of places to make a lot of choices/plays.

Certainly, but CVs don't exist in every game.

Also, there's nothing other than an enemy submarine which can stop a Sub from going to Maximum Depth and going unseen to a position and ambushing. Especially if the sub is in a div and talking with other players over voice who are saying where X or Y enemy ship is.

Why would you think the island-holding Radar Cruiser wouldn't rely on teamates? Odds are it isn't spotting for itself, that's likely for a teammate the position is supporting. Also, said imaginary Cruiser still gets overmatched by Battleship shells, or cross-mapped in open waters, or all the other constraints that Cruisers have already in the game. Please don't waste my time with this.

Radar Cruisers are given tools to find low detection things. That's quite literally what Radar does. Saying that a consumable that is supposed to detect hard-to-detect enemies... isn't supposed to detect hard-to-detect enemies, is odd.

Further, said Radar only works against a sub are Periscope Depth or high. The Sub could certainly dive until the consumable is done, so it isn't as though the sub has no options such a situation.

Yes, but this is a Game with ships that have Health Points and Radar that sees through Mountains.

This is a game which is themed for enjoyment purposes, but it is still a game.

What do these things have to do with a Sub using Maximum depth to appear in a location of its choosing to ambush a target?

At present, Subs CAN and DO go to positions via Max Depth and strike. Some veteran players have gotten quite good at killing a ship and then slipping back out again.

However, that's not to say it's the "best" way to play a sub. It's just a thing a sub can do.

World of Warships comes down to decision making, and more offensive/risky decisions are... risky. "No risk, no reward" as they say.

Please do me a favor and back up a bit. I feel like you're in the middle of a conversation with me, and I missed the beginning of it.

Can you start over at the start?