over 5 years ago - /u/PartWelsh - Direct link

https://i.redd.it/8x72xmjm0xa31.jpg

Edit - We've made an extra change to Rush that went live Friday at 1500 UTC. Rounds will now alternate between Attack and Defence before progressing to the next map.

Hi folks, 

This week, we’ll be bringing Rush back as part of Tides of War. It’ll be available in game on Thursday through till the end of Week 4’s Tides of War activity, and will feature a host of changes that we’ve made in response to your feedback, and observations that were made by ourselves from it’s first showing.

Below, I’ve invited Matthias Wagner (/u/kenturrac) to talk you through some of the changes that we’ve made, and what to expect this week.

Feel free to drop your questions below and we’ll check back in on the thread tomorrow to respond where we can.

Freeman // @PartWelsh

---

Hey guys, 

It has been a while since we last played Rush in Battlefield V and since then we have been busy adjusting the three layouts on Twisted Steel, Narvik and Devastation and the gamemode logic itself based in part on the feedback that we’ve received from you.

I think it’s best to recap the most common feedback first before we jump into the actual changes. So without further fanfare, here’s some of the most prominent feedback points, in no particular order:

  • The sectors are too wide allowing too much hidden flanking and back capping. 
  • The sectors are too short in length. Defenders should be able to push further towards the attackers.
  • Some of the maps should receive some Rush specific changes to make the mode shine on them.
  • Certain sectors are lacking cover or flanking alternatives.
  • The Reinforcement artillery barrage creates too much disturbance on the objective.
  • The defender artillery call ins from the objectives feel like a cheap way of getting kills.
  • The arming and disarming animations are too long.
  • The big artillery cannons allow for a lot of hide and seek at the objective cater more towards a campy playstyle.
  • Attackers seem to win most of the time on all 3 maps.

On top of that, one of the most common points of feedback that we heard was ‘just make it like it was in Battlefield 3’. So we’ve had another look at the numbers, metrics and setups of BF3, and incorporated them into Battlefield V’s version of Rush.

With all said, let’s look at what we have actually changed, what we didn’t want to change, and why it is that some things have stayed the same. 

  • After some internal discussion that we’ve had around the studio, and from playing on public servers with you all, we agree that some of the sectors and the areas of the maps that we were using needed some proper adjustments for Rush as well as some changes to the combat areas - in regards to both length and depth. More details about that are further below.
  • As you know, we also made adjustments to the Reinforcement artillery barrage a few updates back. We know how prominent this was when we first introduced Rush, we hope it will feel better now and we will keep an eye on it going forward should it not play out nicely - particularly in regards to Rush. 
  • Related to the above, we have removed the artillery call-in on the Rush objectives. It just didn’t make sense anymore with the Reinforcement option. 
  • We decided to keep the arming and disarming animations since they add an interesting risk/reward dynamic and require you to play a bit more with your squad. We agree that the situation could feel a bit sluggish, and for that reason we have sped up the animation and adjusted the interaction times to BF3 standards. 
  • The big artillery cannons have been replaced with smaller versions. This should make it easier to quickly read the space around the objective without getting surprised by hiding enemies.
  • We also adjusted the amount of tanks in Rush. We do believe that vehicles have a place in this gamemode, but with only 32 players and a more narrow playground we need to be more careful since they can heavily change balance of a sector. For that reason we reduced the overall amount of tanks. Narvik only supports tanks in the first sector, Twisted Steel offers a tank to the attacking team in the early sectors and then gives a tank to the defenders in the last sector. Devastation doesn’t support tank gameplay.

Let’s have a look at what changed specifically on each map.

Changes to Twisted Steel

General - The Combat Area in all sectors have received an extension to their depth (see here

)

General - Spawns in all sector have received adjustments according to telemetry and layout changes. Furthermore the distances have been adjusted to reflect BF3’s metrics.

General - Fortifications got adjusted and extended across all sectors.

https://i.redd.it/4zt0r1hs0xa31.jpg

Sector 1 - The sector has been lengthened towards the attacker spawn and the attacker HQ has been pulled back behind the farm area.

Sector 1 - The A objective has been moved forward into the trenches (see here

)

Sector 3 - The area between Sector 2 and 3 have received a pass on it’s fortifications and now has a lot more cover.

Sector 3 - Spawns for both teams have been adjusted depending on which objective has been destroyed. This was required since the objectives are now placed in sequence (meaning that one is closer than the other), vs in parallel across the frontline of the sector.

Sector 3 - Defenders have received a tank spawn for this phase. Tanks are otherwise available for attackers during phases 1-3, with phase 4 removing all tank spawns.

Changes to Narvik

General - The Combat Area in all sectors have received an extension to their depth.

General - Spawns in all sector have received adjustments according to telemetry and layout changes. Furthermore the distances have been adjusted to reflect BF3’s metrics.

General - Fortifications have been adjusted, and extended across all sectors.

https://i.redd.it/0lammp9w0xa31.jpg

Sector 1 - The position of the objective that was previously on the street has changed. It’s now positioned in the city ruin area (see here

Sector 3 - This sector has been moved to the loading dock bridge as we felt that in the previous versions of sector 3 and 4 that they didn’t offer up a good playing space and the positioning of the objective didn’t play as well as we would have hoped (see here

)

Sector 3 - The whole area around Objective A has received additional cover and improved geometry for better close quarter combat. We have also added the scaffolding geometry around the loading dock that has previously been introduced in Grind.

Sector 4 - This sector is now situated in the train depot, and up on top of the hill closest to the bunkers (see here

)

Changes to Devastation

General - The Combat Area in all sectors have received an extension to their depth.

General - Spawns in all sectors have received adjustments according to telemetry and layout changes. Furthermore the distances got adjusted to reflect BF3’s metrics.

General - Fortifications have been adjusted, and extended across all sectors.

https://i.redd.it/83gi53a61xa31.jpg

Sector 1 - Defenders should no longer spawn in the Cathedral area, but instead spawn behind the objectives. This way attackers won’t get shot in the side when approaching the library.

Sector 2 - The positions of the objectives have changed completely in order to allow for a more balanced and fun experience. Fortifications and defense lines have also been accordingly adjusted.

Sector 2 - Some of the geometry changes that were introduced in Fortress have been added to the cathedral.

Sector 3 - The positions of the objective have changed completely. A is now situated in the narrow street parallel to the cinema. B is positioned in the lobby of said cinema. Fortifications and defense lines have been adjusted accordingly (see here

)

---

Hope that you are all looking forward to those changes! I for sure can’t wait to see how they play in public and to see if we are getting a few more steps closer towards the good old Rush experience. Please let me know what you think about all of this and once you’ve gotten hands on with it on Thursday, let us know how it plays. In my eyes, Rush is something that is special to the community, and something I want to develop together with you. 

Matthias Wagner // @Kenturrac

External link →
over 5 years ago - /u/PartWelsh - Direct link

Originally posted by keytop19

These looks like great changes that should help Rush be more enjoyable and feel like the classic BF style rush.

With the changes to this mode and frontlines, it seems both modes are in a much better position gameplay-wise. I don't expect either to return permanently prior to private games, but it would be great to see a dedicated weekly playlist that features an evolving mixture of Rush, Domination, Frontlines, and TDM (the 16v16 modes). Similar to the close-quarters combat playlist features this week, but one that gets updated each week with new maps and modes.

Not entirely opposed to that idea. There are technical restrictions that we can’t immediately overcome relating to how we mix modes (Mix mode playlists must only feature content on the same player scales (16, 32, 64), and the rotations will always start on map and mode 1 in the sequence vs. randomised start) but beyond that, we are open to the concept of doing this type of weekly rotation if we can find a consensus across the community for what that playlist would feature.

over 5 years ago - /u/PartWelsh - Direct link

Originally posted by cmasotti

Why make all these changes for a mode that is not planning on being permanent...

Because we haven't given up on Rush. Breakthrough proved through BF1 and so far in BFV that it's a more popular version of Rush, and that we haven't made Rush feel like the powerhouse it used to be in 3, 4 and the staple that it was in BC.

So, we've made changes, and then after folks have played it we'll see about having the next conversation.

over 5 years ago - /u/PartWelsh - Direct link

Originally posted by keytop19

Glad to hear its at least something that could be looked at! I think it could be a great way to give those players who enjoy they 16v16 gameplay a chance to play something besides TDM. For example, with rush returning the playlist may look something like:

Map 1: Devastation- Rush

Map 2: Narvik- Rush

Map 3: Twisted Steel - Rush

Map 4: Aerodrome - Frontlines

Map 5: Arras - Frontlines

Map 6: Rotterdam: Frontlines

Between the maps available for Rush, TDM, Domination, and Frontlines, I feel like a playlist like this could stay pretty fresh with a playlist update each week or, maybe every other week, featuring new modes and maps.

With the addition of Mercury to the playlist last week after feedback, I assume the playlist is pretty modular and this would be possible, but it may be more complicated than that.

I need to check in with the team on what happened after we made changes to the TDM/Frontlines playlist after we made changes.

Initially we put it out there and it went something like TDM/FL/TDM/TDM/FL/TDM/FL.

We caught the early feedback on it and then switched it to TDM/TDM/TDM/TDM/FL/FL/FL and so I'm interested in sitting with the team and figuring out how this affected what we refer to as quit rates (when folks abandon the server and re-queue for something else), and then overall health of the server in the round afterwards (if enough people left, did it cause for things to become onesided and result in everyone else who wanted to stay leaving the server).

If I stick my finger in the air and read the wind, I would imagine that could just be down to the mismatch of game modes, but it's good for us to look at the data and see what happened across the entire playerbase on all platforms.

My personal worry is that when we maintain modes in sequence, it encourages people to only play the bit they want, but I respect completely that we're exposed to similar feedback when we mix things up.

I like the suggestion of what you put up there otherwise. Keen to keep hearing more.

over 5 years ago - /u/PartWelsh - Direct link

Originally posted by SaintSnow

But why isnt it 64 players? 32 isnt terrible but 64 brings the real fun tbh

Historically Rush has played best with both 32 (and even 24) players. I think that 64 person objective based content personally works best when there's more than 2 objectives - otherwise it's less tactical and more chaos.

That's not always a bad thing, but I expect the majority of Rush fans are looking for experiences that match up with their expectations vs. playing the madness card.

over 5 years ago - /u/PartWelsh - Direct link

Originally posted by 1MC_

When the private servers come can we increase the player count on these sort of modes? I loved the pure carnage of 32v32 rush.

Not 100% sure on this one. I don't know if the spawn logic would behave itself but it's good for me to know that you're open to the idea of having it do that.

over 5 years ago - /u/Kenturrac - Direct link

Originally posted by Call_me_ET

Looks like some pretty solid changes. I wanted to ask about vehicles and their role in this mode.

Has there been any consideration to change the vehicles to predetermined tanks? As in having a Tiger and Churchill on Twisted Steel, but a Panzer IV and Valentine on Narvik, etc. etc.?

My biggest gripe with both BFV and BF1 is that the idea of 'player choice' gets in the way of the general threat level and balance of the vehicles. Tanks aren't scary in this game like they were in BF4, BF3 and all the previous games. They aren't monsters that take an entire squad to take down. Assaults can unload all their explosives on the back of a Tiger and blow it up in one go. Would there be any chance to lock the selection of vehicles on a per map basis, rather than having the player choose a tank? I feel like it would make for a better experience overall, as the maps wouldn't be catered to every single tank (the AA tanks being moreso useless on maps that are tank heavy) and instead be balanced on a map/tank basis.

Never say never, but currently there are no plans to do that.

We really want to give the player control and freedom in that matter.

On the matter of tanks being monsters. I think it really depends which one you pick and how you play. The tiger can eat a lot of damage, if facing the threat head on, but yes, its weakness is the back. Through that we add a lot more depth to the dynamic play between infantry and vehicles. Btw, I played BF3 and 4 today. (Still great to go back to them from time to time). In both games, a single engineer could take out any tank. 2 C4 are an instant kill and the engineer carries 6 rockets (BF3). It really all depends on on the players facing each other. :)

over 5 years ago - /u/Kenturrac - Direct link

Originally posted by marmite22

Question for /u/kenturrac - how was the decision made to spend so much time and attention on this mode when it will only be available for a week? I'm super pleased that it has had so much thought put into it but it seems an odd decision to dedicate so much to a temporary game mode.

I'm super excited for this by the way. The changes that you folks made to Frontlines took it from one of my least favourite to one of my favourite modes - https://www.reddit.com/r/BattlefieldV/comments/ce3l36/dice_i_beg_you_keep_frontlines_its_so_much_fun_now/

Glad you like them. We constantly evaluating existing content and think on how we can change it up a bit or improve it. :)

I think Adam answered the question pretty good in his post: https://www.reddit.com/r/BattlefieldV/comments/cehrxp/community_broadcast_changes_to_rush/eu2tki7?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x

And honestly, I just love Rush and enjoy the challenge of improvement.

over 5 years ago - /u/Kenturrac - Direct link

Originally posted by carlo_ren79

Great post tbh, liked reading about how you worked on this! Makes it easier to understand your reasoning.

Thanks! <3

I enjoyed writing it up and maybe we can do that again in the future.

over 5 years ago - /u/PartWelsh - Direct link

Originally posted by marmite22

I think the close combat playlist in particular probably suffered because TDM and FL probably have a very small overlap of players on the venn diagram. I think switching between objective based modes should lessen the impact of people leaving. I was joining Narvik servers, playing 3 rounds of Frontlines and then quitting this week because I honestly have no interest in TDM at all.

Yep. It's an interesting one. TDM players are hardcore. They live and breathe TDM and rarely seem interested in going outside of that and Conquest. Elsewhere, players in other modes rarely dip into TDM.

It's a good first trial of doing a mix like that, and ultimately there won't be any remix that appeals to everyone but I'm happy to work with folks to see what the most attractive playlist (within the right player count) looks like.

over 5 years ago - /u/Kenturrac - Direct link

Originally posted by sirdiealot53

What changed about the artillery?

Not entirely sure which point you are asking about.

For one we replaced the artillery canon mesh that was used instead of the MCom we had in BF3/4/1. The big one that is used in Airborne just didn't fit to well with the gameplay of 32 player Rush and it was common feedback that people can too easily hide. Those seemed like good reasons.

Then we also removed the artillery call-in when interacting with the canon. This system got introduced with BF1 and while it made a lot of sense back then and at the start of BFV, it seemed a bit out of place now since we have the reinforcement artillery call-in.

Hope that answers the question.

over 5 years ago - /u/Kenturrac - Direct link

Originally posted by FuT-Fourzero

Interesting changes, would really like to see Rush stay as a permanent mode because it was pretty fun the last time we played it.

Since Kenturrac is here, can we get an update on the missing stations (or out of bounds) for the Breakthrough mode? We talked about them 4 months ago and I've also put them all in one picture

/u/PartWelsh /u/Kenturrac

Still have it on my list. I actually have that screenshot attached to it.

Sorry for the wait. :3

over 5 years ago - /u/Kenturrac - Direct link

Originally posted by cosmicjewelrancher

This particular community broadcast makes me feel hopeful. With all the issues in the game currently the amount of detail and care that went into a game mode that was taken out originally is impressive. I would like to see more of this on the other major items affecting the game. We have other updates on items or comments by devs about hot fixes but nothing has quite felt good enough. This one though was refreshing.

Glad you like it. :)

Let's try to keep up this messaging.

over 5 years ago - /u/Kenturrac - Direct link

Originally posted by sirdiealot53

No, this part:

"As you know, we also made adjustments to the Reinforcement artillery barrage a few updates back."

I hope I didn't write something wrong here. :O

From what I remember the team adjusted the cam shake and also introduced the cam shake slider. Hope I didn't remember that wrong. If so, my bad.
When we released Rush, we released the Artillery in the same week. So naturally everyone used it all the time and some feedback was that we should just remove it from this mode. I felt like it has a place in this mode. We already removed the V1 call-in since we felt it would be too strong against 16 people defending 1 or 2 stations. The artillery is a way softer version of that and less deadly. So it seems like a fair fit. :)

over 5 years ago - /u/Kenturrac - Direct link

Originally posted by IlPresidente995

While i do disagree about locking tanks on a per-map basis, I think that (after 450 hours of game, i main each class (a bit less the recon)) you should strongly reconsider the assaulter AT equipment. I don't know why you took that choice (do you want people producing more battlefield moments video?), but this mechanic is definitely illed

- even just one assaulter, if he manages to get behind you is enough to destroy a tank (and it's not that hard, especially in conquest), so this is anti-team play at all;

- almost each assaulter rifle is between the best rifles of the game, being effective at various range, so is the most played class

- the tanks and the turret are slower, and above all they can't shoot (especially the big tanks) at their feet, given the limited turret angle

- the upper gunner is a death trap, and can't defend this threats at all

- suspension and first person input lag are... pretty crappy, makes really hard shooting while moving, but this is another subject

besides this it's the first BF where i really enjoy playing tanks (but it's mainly because i love WW2 tanks, lol). BTW I'm pretty ok with the classes and their damage model

This is what i think about what must be mostly reworked about tanks ( u/PartWelsh and u/Braddock512 often said that you guys like feedbacks, i hope you consider this, also there was a thread on this sub some time ago about) but i think i can say that most of the community here thinks that there is something to be reworked about assaulters AT equipment and tanks (in particular, sharing those points)

I should clarify that I am not a weapon or vehicle designer. So I can't really comment on the specifics. I just wanted to share the design philosophy that is laying the ground work here - freedom and choice are in the hands of the player.

I will forward the specific feedback tho. :)

over 5 years ago - /u/PartWelsh - Direct link

Originally posted by sam8404

it encourages people to only play the bit they want

What's so bad about that?

We don't have a proper team balancer in place and even if as much as 10% of the server drops out, it can create a bad experience for the folks that stick around. If the server doesn't then backfill quickly enough, and one team starts getting stomped, the team that's getting stomped starts to quit, and the team doing the stomping follows behind because they were looking forward to the fight.

This is one possible scenario, and largely the worst one. Whilst it's of little impact to the person who hopped out first to get into a fresh game, the next 10-15 minutes for the people left behind become more frustrating and we try to respect peoples time as much as possible.

Edit - Because this comments became a bit of a tourist destination on the tweets, I'll add to this from another comment I posted: Yup. By 'proper' I mean to the standards that many hold us to and expect. There is a balancer but it's not delivering what you like. More than happy to acknowledge that this is a problem, it's something we'd like to see changed

over 5 years ago - /u/Kenturrac - Direct link

Originally posted by kameradhund

artillery call in was the best part of rush. thanks for ruining it.

stop taking stuff away from us -

GIVE US MORE instead.

we paid money you remember..?

You can still call-in artillery via the squad leader reinforcement menu.

over 5 years ago - /u/Kenturrac - Direct link

Originally posted by speakingmoose123

First of all, thank you for your communication with the community, I really appreciate these kind of posts where you explain why you made certain choices!

Anyway, question to you Matthias: Could you tell us why it is not so reasonable to design certain rush maps to include e. g. a base jump à la Bf3 or something similar?

Well, first we would need a base jump map like Damavand Peak which we currently don't have and since the locations of our maps are inspired by real life locations of WW2, it's probably hard to find such places.

Having that said, we all love Damavand Peak. So I am sure, if we ever leave the historical space, we would love to go a bit nuts again. :)

over 5 years ago - /u/Kenturrac - Direct link

Originally posted by kameradhund

yeah exactly. what did they do all the months..?! why not give us ALL maps..!?

It's needs to be setup, tested and be on quality. The main focus was to first get Rush right and then possibly expand it, if the community likes the direction we are heading. :)

Don't forget, we work on many different things at the same time. Maps, modes, quality of life fixes, bugfixes, etc. So Rush wasn't the only thing we focused on during the last weeks and months. In the meantime you got a map, more really close on the horizon, Frontline changes, Outpost and more to come that we haven't even announced yet. ;)

over 5 years ago - /u/Kenturrac - Direct link

Originally posted by busydying

definitely not the old rush expereince, still garbo

Any kinda of more detailed feedback would be appreciated. I sadly can't work with that kind of feedback. Could you evaluate what's not to your liking? <3

over 5 years ago - /u/PartWelsh - Direct link

Originally posted by PoderickPayne

If rush was so great in BF3 and BF4, than why for like the last year or two before BFV, could I only find like one maybe two active rush servers in BF4. Against like 50 full conquest servers?

Where were all you rush lovers then???? huh?....Huh?....HUH?????

I wanted to play it and you weren't there for me (sob)

Rush Damavand Peak is our King.

Also, please accept this /hug

over 5 years ago - /u/Kenturrac - Direct link

Originally posted by staryoshi06

Will the mcom artillery call-ins still be available for frontlines?

They are for now. Same for Airborne. I will most likely remove them tho. In the moment we introduced reinforcement-call-ins, I should have removed them. The new call-ins work better, are properly indicated to friends and enemies. It's just a better replacement.

over 5 years ago - /u/Kenturrac - Direct link

Originally posted by OpusZombie

The linear layout of A and B in the first sector on Twisted and Devastation is an interesting design choice ... basically you can defend A from B (especially on Twisted where you have sightlines to everything). So most of the defenders can be at B while defending A … this makes a flank to B equally pointless. Seeing a lot of teams now on Day 2 not getting out of the first sector on these 2 maps on XB1 NA.

I think so far it seems like all first sectors are a bit hard for being first sectors (we normally want the first sector to be attacker favoured and tune up the difficulty over time). I want to wait for telemetry to actually see the win rate. Twisted Steel offers a lot of flanking routes though and the attacker have a tank as well. So right now I think Twisted Steel is mostly okay. Devastation is a difficult one since the lanes are so close, but we have to see how it plays throughout the weekend. The meta normally adjusts. (Pro-tip: as an attacker, build the ladder at the front of the cinema)

over 5 years ago - /u/Kenturrac - Direct link

Originally posted by Phroggo

Hey u/kenturrac , sorry for the @, but I noticed you answered some other questions in this sub so I thought I'd take a crack at it.

I'm just wondering what the general idea is regarding the aesthetics and visual themes of maps. In Bf1, there were huge fires and plumes of smoke in the background, which was pretty neat, but in Bfv, theres not much for that. Idk if you personally had anything to do with these design changes, but I'm just wondering why this did change. I thought Bf1 dealt with colors really well, and Bfv just does it differently.

Was this overall mood shift intentional? Or was it just how the maps developed aesthetically? If you see this, thanks for your time, and I love your work!! :)

Hey, no worries about the tag and thanks for the nice words! <3

In simple terms, you can say that I am the gameplay guy and not the art guy, but I will try to give some information as best as I can explain.

We normally do a lot of research for our ingame worlds and I think compared to others in the industry we have a fairly high expectations on our selfs when it's about delivering worlds as closely to the real places as it can be. This means sometimes not showing the all out war on the horizon if it didn't happen. Take Rotterdam, I have heard a few times that it doesn't portray the grittiness of WW2 and yeah, it probably doesn't convey the typical picture of WW2, but it shows the day the "surprise invasion" happened. There wasn't much bombardment. I think we went way further than what actually happened already.

Devastation then on the other hand shows the scene after the bombing. So comparable this is probably 400% more of what you would expect from WW2.

Again, I am not the art guy, nor was I much involved in any background art discussions other than Devastation, but I hope it paints a bit of the picture on why we went the direction we went to. I am sure that the further we get into the war, the more we draw the typical image of what people believe WW2 looked like. Most of the current maps show first assaults in the war and not days and weeks of grinding over terrain.

Hope this was useful. :)

over 5 years ago - /u/Kenturrac - Direct link

Originally posted by Phroggo

Oh for sure, that actually makes a lot of sense! While remaining accurate is definitely a super important thing, I did really enjoy some of the prominent set pieces like the crashed zeppelin in Giant's Shadow. They really made those maps memorable for me, and made them more visually interesting. Even though you aren't one of the art guys, do you think that future maps could have similar things as the war progresses? Like something similar to the destroyer in Suez being a set piece in maybe a Pacific map? Thanks so much for the reply, and I'm sorry if I'm a nuisance!

I would love that. Heck, I hope one day we do base jump maps again, but then again, not always my call. :)