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(TL;DR at bottom)

I recently finished watching an online lecture series titled Power and Politics in Today's World, and one of the concepts mentioned was "exit, voice, and loyalty," which describes how members of an organization respond to a decline in the quality of that organization. Faced with this problem, members can either leave (exit) or seek to reform the organization (voice). I think applying this concept to Eco will yield some interesting conclusions while also shedding light on a problematic feature (not necessarily unique to Eco) that is preventing this game from realizing fully the regenerative and simulatory open-world concept that I, in my opinion, wish it could be.

Just to be clear, I love this game. I played roughly 130 hours in about 2 weeks (I've since cut back because such levels are unsustainable). There's a lot to admire in Eco, and it would be pointless in listing all the features that I found enjoyable. The most relevant feature, and perhaps the most important one, is the open-world concept that largely leaves players free to pursue their individual goals aside from the stated goal of averting global catastrophe and stewarding the world environment. The simulatory nature of the game is what led me to purchase it in the first place, and the videos and photos of the game led me to believe that there would be servers with enough people to really sustain a specialized economy in which someone could, for instance, derive their in-game livelihood solely by transporting goods from one place to another.

After spending several hours in several different servers, it quickly became apparent that such an experience was not yet within reach. I, and, I am sure, many other players, have noticed that servers empty out rapidly. The official servers see almost a hundred active players on day 0 and hardly anyone by day 7. Even well-advertised unofficial servers that commit to long-term gameplay might see active player counts between 30-50 players right after a refresh that soon dwindle to 20 or less just a couple days later.

Some might say that there's nothing wrong with this. Specialization settings can be modified to make it easier for fewer people to amass more skills, and it is perfectly feasible for even a handful of players to work together to take out the meteor. On this view, it doesn't matter whether you have 80 players or 20 players--those few who remain can finish the game.

I agree that the official objective of the game, as it was designed, can be accomplished with only a few active players. What I am arguing here is that low and declining player counts prevent the game from realizing fully its potential as an open-world simulation of human society. The real world economy, for example, depends on a large number of participants to set market prices based on aggregate supply and demand. Hence, the more players there are in a server, the more goods are sold, and the more demand for goods is generated. Likewise, modern economies are specialized as a result of technology and population. Advancements in agriculture freed people up for other occupations that arose to meet the demands of previously nonexistent or niche markets that grew proportionate to the population. Hence, the more players there are in a server, the more specialized and narrow occupations become. To put it another way, it becomes more efficient for people to focus on one skill rather than to handle many tasks. Only a sufficiently populated server could sustain realtors, advertising agencies, campaign managers, garbage collectors, arbitrage traders, and many other specialized occupations. The possibilities are endless.

All of this sounds exciting, and others have expressed similar interest in such gameplay. Why, then, don't servers have hundreds of players interacting in an immersive sandbox as I've described it above? Applying the concept of "exit, voice, and loyalty" might offer an explanation. Simply put, the exit costs of leaving a server are too low. New servers attract lots of players because they offer a fresh start and a level playing field for everyone. People want to get ahead, to hone their skills, and to design and construct high-tier and furnished buildings. Even without money in the picture, all of these are measures of success or advancement. Some people, as a result of a timing head start, of an advantageous setup location, or of taking up an in-demand specialization, will come out ahead. These players have an incentive to remain. Others who are dissatisfied with their status in the server, however, can simply quit and join another server and start over from scratch, hoping that they will fare better this time. This hurts those who did well in the original server because it depletes the server of a population base, which is detrimental for all the reasons given in the preceding paragraph.

The alternative to exit is voice. When members of an organization cannot easily leave, they instead may opt to reform the organization and improve it from within. Seafarers on a lifeboat can't ditch their situation. If there's a hole, they'll have to plug it. Likewise, if the costs of exit for players in a server were to be much higher, they would have to remain in the server and seek to improve their lot instead of attempting to start over someplace else.

What might this look like in practice? I offer some possible solutions. I do not necessarily endorse any of these proposals, but I do offer them as food for thought. First, SLG could consolidate its four official servers into one longer running server and require all new players to spend a certain amount of time in that official server (say, 5 hours) before being able to join other servers. This would provide the server with a steady stream of new players who could choose to remain in the server, knowing that their investment in the server will be rewarded by the presence of players who come after them, or they could choose to move on after they have satisfied the time requirement (and gotten some initial experience with the game).

A second proposal might be to limit the number of servers a player can join in a given time period. This would prevent server hopping and would force players to invest more time and effort in a server. This could be a hard cap or a token system in which players could purchase more tokens in order to hop into more servers (disclaimer: I am not a business major, nor do I have any monetization experience).

The third and most radical proposal might be to prohibit private multiplayer servers and to simply host one single universal server. Because I believe the number of players who would play this game no matter what exceeds the number of players who would only be willing to play if given a choice among servers, this would be the most realistic because it would produce the highest active player counts.

Some might object that the game privileges first movers and that latecomers are disadvantaged, and hence that raising exit costs forces players to play an unfair game. I would concede that first movers do have some advantages, such as determining where the urban centers will be and being first to specialize; however, if specialization settings are set to high or very high (as I would hope and expect it to be), then first movers will have largely early-stage specializations and will therefore, in the mid- to late-game, have to rely on latecomers who specialize in late-stage specializations. Furthermore, players who are generally dissatisfied with their condition in the server, perhaps because they feel that a small cadre of successful elites control most of the land, resources, and capital in the world, can always choose to exercise their power in numbers through the in-game government. All of this is to say that Eco is structured enough to provide recourse even for players who are lower on the ladder or late to join the game.

There are obviously technical problems with all of these approaches. The most glaring one might be whether the server would be capable of handling hundreds or even thousands of players simultaneously. From the standpoint of multiplayer gameplay, however, I think that any effort that raises the costs of exiting a server will lead to an improved and more simulatory experience for all.

TL;DR: Eco's potential to simulate real-world politics and economics depends on the number of players in a server. The more players there are, the more efficient in-game markets become, and the more specialized occupations become. Currently, active player counts in servers are low to begin with and decline over time because of low exit costs. Players who don't like their situation in a server can leave and join another server for a fresh start. If the exit costs were higher, then players would have to stay in a server and exercise their "voice" by improving their condition and the quality of the server. Three proposals are suggested as purely food for thought. First, SLG could host a single official server that all new players would have to play in for a certain time before being able to access other servers. Second, all players could be limited in the number of different servers they can join in a given time period. Third, all official and nonofficial servers could be replaced by a single universal server.

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over 3 years ago - /u/SLG-Dennis - Direct link

Originally posted by DuxDucis52

I 100% agree that being able to exit is a problem in eco but I actually think you are targeting the wrong people with your solutions. I run into this problem alot nowadays because I'm an adult who has a full time job and responsibilities, I'll play for a few days because the economy is fair or at least appears fair and it is peak demand for everything. As the game developes there becomes a clear pecking order because there are players that will play 24/7 to get the next upgrades and will team up to make everyone else obsolete. If you can only play 2-4 hours a day and people with your skill can play for 12 you will be outcompeted very quickly.

I have talked to Dennis before about this on the discord when it came to the old skill system, in the old system you had a fixed amount of skill points you could get per day (crafting and actions didn't contribute to skill gain) based on housing and food. This meant that players who couldn't play all day still felt like they were advancing despite not being on all day so you would see more stable communities. The only problem with the old skill system was the speed and efficiency upgrades but that could have been easily fixed. Unfortunately the devs seem to be a bit shortsighted on this issue and want to maximize the enjoyment of the 24/7 player over that of the community; which is probably due to the fact that they have a positive feedback loop on the discord feedback.

It might seem counterintuitive and probably a bit draconian but it would be nice to see some servers limit playtime. Also I disagree with your point on the official servers just because the devs use them as ways to test eco. Some of the servers are laissez faire while other have premade govts and laws. Also some of the best cycles I have played was playing with 20 players on a private server.

I'm watching all channels, including this one, but that doesn't mean that we agree with every statement. The old skill system was widely disliked on all channels and the new one is simply more popular, it's just a matter of fact that I cannot change. Players want to be able to progress by doing something, not solely by time passed. The character XP itself is still limited on your playtime. And I do fully agree with that. After all it's a game, we shouldn't be punishing players that can or want to play more with the game they purchased - in the end every server admin has the ability to limit players playtime and even without an admin the community could do so at any point by a law.

As we need a playtime restriction feature for educational use, we'll also have an official feature for this in the future that you can use as well. The skillsystem get's a few changes, mostly to be more efficient when someone 'trains' your skills, requiring community interaction from people already knowing the profession to be most efficient. If groups do not tend to double learn specialities now, that will also help a bit.

If you want to suggest something to fix these issues, it should always be a buff for players that can't play as much, but isn't prohibitively limiting to other players.

(And yes, I know you are a fan of the old system - but as we debated a year (?) ago, the majority of people is not, us neither.)

over 3 years ago - /u/SLG-Dennis - Direct link

Originally posted by demosthenex

Welcome to the microcosm of simulating human civilization. On a server which I recently played there was significant debate over how to handle these issues. That people can just quit was certainly an issue, but it's a game...

Overall your post is thought provoking and right on, however I disagree completely regarding players catching up in late game specialties. What I observe is that rapidly an oligarchy of early players with immense resources develops, and they can crowd out or eliminate competition for later techs they want to take. When their competition falls behind, they just quit. This reinforces the lack of competition.

My buddy and I actually drew up a system of laws and made a proof of concept server which was modeled on a system of Guilds which could address many of these issues. Given I haven't the time to play it through currently, perhaps I should post the bylaws.

I haven't seen a server which had the time to grow a government organically, and maintain it from the player base to address these issues. The "voice" option is rarely exercised because leaving is easy. That leaves us with experimenting with rather static governments setup once at the start of the game, and maybe iterating changes over server resets.

Coast-Redwood and Sea-Otter have shown they're capable of creating functional governments that at least stays for the lifetime for their servers. It's not always the case, though, as it depends on who plays that cycle - it needs people to go forward with it.

over 3 years ago - /u/SLG-Dennis - Direct link

Originally posted by Darqsat

You just said what I was always wanted to say somewhere but always thought that it will be pointless and most of people would count as whining. But I would like to support your oppinion! I think it's valuable but I don't know who is the recepient of this knowledge.

I am working in software development near 15 years, and I can see how product management skills could help to organize a server. I think the same knowledge can be used from marketing of any product. I mean - most of server admins doesn't make self-reflection and don't analyze fail runs. Not gathering feedback, not counting retention and attrition.

They just constantly run fresh again and again with small changes in desire to adapt and fix those issues. But i see that it's not enough and it require more practical skills from marketing to solve that Fermi paradox filter in Eco.

From my point of view, Eco need a mechanism where players need more time before then can commit into the server session, because without obvious and transparant commitments it works as a snow-ball:

  • People starting fresh
  • People settling, buying many skill scrolls, claiming hundrends of square meters of land
  • People building shops
  • People trying to trade
  • People waiting few days for customers/resources
  • People don't receive enough attention to their needs
  • People leaving for another fresh server

And it works as snow-ball because with every leave, any next player who was counting on some neighbour recieves the same result and eventually leave because they don't have enough emotional capacity to re-settle or don't have an easy option to drop their professions and start "fresh" inside same server but in another place with another people.

I think that to solve this issue, the gameplay must limit people start fresh and leave it. For example, you may have 5 slots for characters, and you can start simultaniously only 5 servers and in order to start new, you have to delete the character from your list. And when you delete it, your claims, and your profile has to be purged from server so any other player will know that they should'nt count on you and shouldn't expect you to come tomorrow. Or at least they will see that 15 from 20 masons who started first day was canceled, and new people can claim that profession and be useful on market.

A small change that anyhow changes ability to play, but which may solve many problems with abandoned servers and abandoned expectations from neighbours.

That is a interesting concept, but I wonder how big the sh*tstorm would be if we enforced restrictions on how many servers you can play. Server-Admins would need to change at the same time, as they typically reset pretty arbitrarily as well so that I do not actually think many people have 5 player profiles at any given time.

over 3 years ago - /u/SLG-Dennis - Direct link

Originally posted by DuxDucis52

Beautiful thing about eco is that it's really well designed for admins to determine their own rules without modding the game; which people can do also. It's good to know there will be playtime restriction as an official feature. I understand that it's not going back but I was just trying to illustrate how the skills affect the community culture

The way to move forward with the current skill system imo would be to have more skills , more levels so the unlocks are even more spread out, or perhaps more of a branching tree where people can specialize within a skill. Eco could go with some kind of life is feudal system with the tables and items, like have a quality metric which takes into account quality raw materialsskillquality of table= output quality; which would create an iterative process in the economy and create waste. Lastly what if there was a pie chart like how the stomach works where it has every item you crafted in it over 24 hours and of you craft a certain thing alot you get slightly more efficient at it (like 5%)? That would encourage people to be extremely niche and would scale well with larger servers

All of the mentioned ideas are actually in consideration right now, of course Eco will also expand more on profession side, it''s still Early Access after all and not content complete.

Qualities is something we might look at after implementing food spoil and depending on that, wear and tear for all objects.

over 3 years ago - /u/SLG-Dennis - Direct link

A big reason why there aren't hundreds of players on a server is that eco servers simply don't support that yet and might never do. White-Tiger is trying hard, but even with the strongest hardware one can currently acquire on earth that Eco supports anything over 80 players, especially when used in conjunction with a lot of activity and government stuff (DB > 10 GB), the experience becomes laggy and hence leads players expecting perfectly lag-free experiences to quit. White-Tiger is known to keep a good userbase till the very end or at least shortly before it (this cycle for example there were a lot of exits due to a lot of, let me call it 'government experimentation' in legislation, prematurely), but the server cannot sustain it at a level that is enjoyable for everyone. Eco was never meant to be a MMO and I don't see where this could happen even by a technical standpoint - the whole server would probably have to be rewritten, with parts of the game as well.

Currently Exit vs. Voice rather seems to be based on the very values and priorities a specific person has, and as you might imagined most people just don't want to deal with such stuff in their free time. You see more people dealing with it the more typical playtime the user has, as there the interest in exactly these debates is there - but most players want a cool, good and chill experience and if they can't get it - they'll just search for another server to try. Which for a game, is very valid.

This also already explains why we cannot consolidate those four servers. First, it wouldn't be possible technically. Second, those servers offer different rulesets for different types of players - White-Tiger is full-fleshed country with everything you need and strict rules, while Coast Redwood is rather 'Conan Exiles and the other two in between. Each one has their resident players that do not want to play on the others, as it's not their cup of tea.

Requiring players to first spend playtime on one of the official servers sounds like overreaching to me, but at least recommending it should be possible. On the other hand - we want to encourage players to try out different play types as can be found on different servers, especially community - but also on each of the different official servers. What makes Eco so flexible is the flexibility for admins to create their own special world. And we do know people buy Eco for a very big scope of things. Some people only buy it to build cool looking stuff, they're not interested in the other stuff, but may be very useful to a server in that capacity only (like White-Tiger paid Architects in the past to do nothing but that). Others are only interested in government (like me), they don't deal much with 'playing the game'. Others again only want to mine, only want to fiddle out economics or something else. It's the art of an admin to make all these people be able to play together and still have a working society - just like in real life.

Limiting the amount of slots is something I'm not sure how the community at large would react and as I answered to Darqsat I do not think, given the frequent resets, many players ever have 5 or more active profiles on any server.

The third, radical proposal, is obviously Eco as an MMO - but that is neither possible technically nor is it what the basic fundamentals of Eco are supposed to be. Variety just would come to a halt, loosing many players in the process.

It was indeed a good read, though and we'll take some of it with us into the meetings :)

over 3 years ago - /u/SLG-Dennis - Direct link

Originally posted by DuxDucis52

So hyped for multiple govts. But I think under that system you could still get steamrolled of another govt builds a bigger town hall than you; we will see.

There would be global government to reach in the end and it can be taken with force, if enabled - that's at least what the design document says.

over 3 years ago - /u/SLG-Dennis - Direct link

Originally posted by SatsukiShizuka

The economy expands and people's demands get created as new objectives are established. They DO have to work at it to get the resources, and if the target market is half a world away, without a decent trading network it'll mean diddly squat. Also if the demand exceeds supply, there'll be space for others who produce (at a higher price, albeit more convenient for other reasons, such as being closer or have stock now) to have their products sell.

This is the time when importing the technology and leapfrogging does wonders.

We don't call people fool here. For no reason.






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