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These are just some thoughts I have had after playing a few hundred hours.

When new/all players are given 500$, 1000$ worth of buying power without actually contributing any resources to the economy, what I have repeatedly seen happen is that those players who had iron and iron goods or just made the more advanced tech for the servers level of progression quickly soaked up large amounts of the free money Injected into the system. Almost immediately people stopped going to stores and selling things as there was no short term incentive to generate money. Less developed players that otherwise wouldnt be able to buy 500$ worth of goods through barter suddenly can....and they all go to maybe 3 or 4 of the most advanced stores on the server. These people become despots with crazy amounts of buying power which then solidify their success in the later game. It does not seem fair to reward people so immensely for starting early or picking a specific profession, and without all the free money early game maybe they would be forced to play a more active role in the economy. Without everyone receiving buying power unconnected to economic contribution, iron smelters, mechanics and other more advanced skills would be forced to help build up the stores around them and the broader economy in order to create players with enough wealth to spend heavily at their store.

I am curious to see how a currency might develop without it being immediately prescribed and injected into the economy by admins.

And whether this approach would work at all....

Discussion pls :)

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about 1 year ago - /u/SLG-Dennis - Direct link

You seem to be missing taxes. This doesn't happen with taxes.

See White-Tiger's UBI and taxes.

I cannot contribute to a way without UBI, as of my experience it's the absolute best thing you can do out of a multitude of benefits it has.

about 1 year ago - /u/SLG-Dennis - Direct link

Originally posted by DonaIdTrurnp

Not unless your taxation is past the Laffer maximum, which would be hard to do.

If you tax sales instead of profits, you’ll make it very hard to calculate prices.

Sales tax is pretty standard and works well as of my experience.

about 1 year ago - /u/SLG-Dennis - Direct link

Originally posted by SkinHungryC-3PO

Would taxation so early in the game dissuade people from going for certain industries known to generate heaps of cash like smelting and such?

Not in my experience. Would be a bit counterintuitive to actually playing the game to not play it as well (and not going for professions is basically ending up just that).

about 1 year ago - /u/SLG-Dennis - Direct link

Originally posted by MetallicDragon

This is, essentially, deflation in action. I've seen it a bunch of times on servers that just don't hand out enough currency. A very easy and effective solution that tends to make everyone happy is to just implement a UBI (funded by just printing money), like /u/SLG-Dennis mentioned. It makes those less active or late-joining players some spending money, and the large producers get to sell more at higher prices. It's a win-win.

Some people may grumble about inflation, but I've never seen that be an issue under UBI in this game.

Exactly - ultimately it's a game and we know the game has flaws, especially when it comes down to playtime and competetiveness. UBI can ensure that everyone can participate in some way, play and have fun (and that is what it's about ultimately, right?), even if there is the typical pro-players around. You can still limit those by good taxation.

about 1 year ago - /u/SLG-Dennis - Direct link

Originally posted by MetallicDragon

but how could this stop the initial creation of immediate winners and losers from the first injection of new global currency by server admins?

It doesn't, but it does keep that from being a problem, since there will be more currency to go around, so those early winners will need to keep selling goods that people want to maintain their advantage.

With barter and minted currencies distributed through a player store perhaps at least those who pursued advanced tech could only get as many resources as people could collect themselves

The problem is not the free money. The problem is not enough money. You still end up with the tech players having all the money regardless of how the money is distributed.

Government stores buying goods to distribute money works OK, but has its own problems. Usually what happens is one or two goods are overpriced, someone notices this, and exploits it to make all the money. Or the store ends up with a ton of resources it has no use for, so it stops buying that resource, and now we're back in the "Deflation" stage of things.

Deflation happens when the amount of currency in circulation goes down. When a few wealthy players hoard money for one reason or another, that means there's effectively less currency in circulation, which causes prices to go down, which causes the wealthy players' wealth to have even more purchasing power, exacerbating the problem. To counteract this, you NEED to inject more currency into the economy one way or another, and it needs to go to people who will spend it and not uselessly hoard it.

And fitting taxation can still reduce the money that lands on the accounts of the early winners.

about 1 year ago - /u/SLG-Dennis - Direct link

Originally posted by DonaIdTrurnp

Yeah, it just adds a lot of math in figuring out pricing of complex items. A mechanic will need to sell some items at prices different from the cost basis they need to use to determine the costs of other items.

They've been doing fine with that, though, so I don't see a drawback in that.

about 1 year ago - /u/SLG-Dennis - Direct link

Originally posted by DonaIdTrurnp

It’s not a very big drawback, especially since a VAT would be prohibitively difficult to calculate.

Oh, a VAT is even more prohibitively difficult to actually create with the law system. It's a dream I have for a long time ...

about 1 year ago - /u/SLG-Dennis - Direct link

Originally posted by DonaIdTrurnp

The other thing that sales taxes prevent is using stores to create implicit transport requests: if I sell something at one location for 12.35 and buy it at another for 12.36, that’s offering 0.01 per unit to transport it (as well as putting market orders at those prices. But a 1% sales tax would mean that the smallest amount to offer to pay for shipping intrinsically would have to be .13, of which the shipper gets .01.

Shipping contracts exist but need to be interacted with each time they happen.

On White-Tiger we hence have a transporter profession (if you didn't take any skills) that is exempt from sales tax.

But noone there would transport anything for a single cent. Can also use a contract for that, given the government will in any case want to tax that service in some way.

On the other hand our sales tax is between 10 and 20 % mostly, depending on the goods, so we're far off 1%.

about 1 year ago - /u/SLG-Dennis - Direct link

Originally posted by working4016

Where can I find info on White Tigers UBI? I can't seem to find it.

You'd need to join it to check it, I don't think we have any publicly available info on that elsewhere.