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THIS IS NOT A WHINING POST, JUST WANT TO HAVE SOME DISCUSSION ABOUT THE STATE OF THE GAME.

Right now, two of the most popular junglers in pro play are Jarvan and Volibear. These are traditionally bruiser/fighter type champions but they are being built full tank in pro play in the current meta.

The current meta build is tank item mythic (Turbo Chemtank) into Zhonya's Hourglass second.

This indicates to me that pro players have realized that you just can't build enough tank stats that it outvalues stasis. 2.5 seconds of invulnerability is just way more valuable because it's higher effective tankiness.

Isn't this a bit problematic for the game?

Tank stats should be the #1 way of getting to be tanky and a frontline thread in my opinion. Champions with inherent tank stats in the kit like Ornn or Sejuani might not buy stasis, but it feels like that if you don't have these inherent tank stats in your kit, then you can't really be tanky enough for it to really matter.

It just feels very cheesy to me. I think Riot should tune both damage levels and rework stasis in this game.

G2 buying 5 stopwatches at 20 minutes every game in LEC playoffs also just shows you how batsh*t insane stasis is in pro play. I think a rework or heavy changes are in order.

Thoughts?

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over 2 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Just to devil's advocate, from solo queue data Zhonya's performs pretty weakly on every jungler I've checked. It's very hard to check this exclusively in high-MMR since there aren't that many samples (880 games of Zhonya's second on J4 in D2+ over the last month for example). Again, this is fairly clumsy since intuitively stronger players would be better at using active items but as a direct comparison, Frozen Heart is cheaper and appears to win +4.5% of the time over Zhonya's but this is low confidence because of low sample.

I'm personally unconvinced as an analyst that Zhonya's is actually correct. It feels good, I'm sure. But so does spending 2600g on not just a Chain Vest. I don't really believe it's correct to spend 1.5k on just a repeating stasis when there are much better options out there.

Remember, this is the same pro play that forgot about Censor meta for the entire year. I just don't trust them on this one.

Circling back to the point of damage, I agree. I believe offensive itemization has gotten much more powerful over League's lifetime. I think back to Renekton builds from years ago where the only realistic offensive item was Brutalizer and otherwise he built full tank. Cooldown reduction for mages was tough to buy; it was often Nashor's or Frozen Heart or nothing. So I do think the game has gotten deadlier but some of it is player behavior as well. The Resolve tree has great options for increasing durability on squishies, yet it gets overlooked constantly.

Conditioning and Overgrowth are incredibly performant runes. If they were consistently picked (as I believe they should), the game would probably feel properly deadly. So I do believe some of this lethality is of our own making.

over 2 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by daswef2

I think the bigger problem is the amount of times I see junglers with like two items at 25 minutes in pro. When youve got Viego DS Guardian Angel and Voli with Mythic and Zhonya, of course at two items hourglass items will be good, tank stats cost money that they haven't gotten.

FWIW the average 2nd item completion of a low econ jungler (e.g. Jarvan, Lee) in D2+ is like 20 minutes. For higher-econ junglers like Viego it's more like 19. And this is counting 3k+ items like Death's Dance or Cleaver.

Pro data may be very different and I don't have a way of easily accessing aggregated item data but Gold/Min is easy to find.

The top 5 presence junglers in the season average at 332.8 gold/min, which signals 6656 gold by 20 minutes. If they skip upgraded boots, that's averaging Sunderer + Death's Dance by 20 minutes. 22-23 with upgraded boots.

They're certainly lower-econ, though. The average mid laner in pro sits at around 400 Gold/Min, for example.

over 2 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Here's some pro play data as food for thought. This is somewhat clumsy as it will be influenced by actual champions played. Here's the gold/min from the top 5 most-picked champions across Jungle for top leagues/tournaments from 2015 to present

  • 2015 Jungle: 303, 286, 291, 286, 335 (300 average)
  • 2016 Jungle: 347, 340, 336, 362, 382 (353 average)
  • 2017 Jungle: 335, 348, 340, 321, 359 (340 average)
  • 2018 Jungle: 314, 315, 314, 314, 331 (318 average)
  • 2019 Jungle: 314, 324, 314, 338, 321 (322 average)
  • 2020 Jungle: 325, 304, 304, 367, 331 (326 average)
  • 2021 Jungle: 342, 351, 341, 339, 348 (344 average)
  • 2020 Jungle: 324, 334, 341, 344, 321 (333 average)

It's worth noting that mid lane gold/min is pretty close to 400 in every season after 2015. It's 374 for 2015. So it appears 2016 had a big surge of gold everywhere.

over 2 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by Altricad

SO the same amount of gold, but damage creep is super high so that statsis is the only way to survive for an initiator?

Or players are wrong in "discovering" Zhonya's.