Original Post — Direct link

I've seen a lot of complaints about matchmaking in the last days, in my games , on fb league groups and on reddit. And truly, can you blame the people that have doubts about a system that relies entirely on invisible numbers. People will always have doubts on a system that they can't as little as check, especially if the numbers required to check it are purposely hidden for no real reason whatsoever. The main reason i could've find for keeping mmr hidden is because "it will confuse players", but isn't it doing the opposite?

At the end of the day, if you are silver but meet platinum players in your games I believe you deserve an explanation. And not, "your mmr is higher"/"their mmr is lower" is not a valid explanation.

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over 4 years ago - /u/VegeterianOsu - Direct link

Originally posted by WhirlingDervishGrady

Series promos are the f**king worst they make me want to play normals instead of ranked (sadly the kr server doesn't have norms). How is fun to be in the final game of your promos and only to lose because someone afks and now you have to start all over again.

how tf does the server not have normals? where do the new players play then? i remember Faker saying he played thousands of normals before his first ranked game

over 4 years ago - /u/RiotIAmWalrus - Direct link

Hey there! I'm the designer in charge of Ranked, so I can speak pretty directly to this. To start, I totally get the pain you're feeling here - seeing players with really different ranks in your game feels like garbage, even if we tell you that the MMR makes it fair. We want to solve this problem by getting MMR and Rank closer together, something we'll be talking about more over this season. But there are some really good reasons we don't just show MMR:

First, check out this post from a couple years ago where Riot Gortok goes over this question: https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2018/02/dev-matchmaking-real-talk/ . I think that answer holds up pretty well, but I'll also give some of my own reasons. Strap in, this is gonna get long:

  1. MMR is meant to measure your progress, not display it. For MMR to measure skill correctly, it has to do a lot of things that, if you were watching the entire time, feels pretty awful. The easiest example is a new player. When a new player enters the system, we don't have enough info to match them correctly yet, so we put them close to the middle of the pack and move them based on results. But if that new player is worse than average, their MMR starts at one point and then drops. And drops. And drops, until they reach a fair match.
    But if you look at how that player is playing, their MMR is not reflecting their story. They're typically getting better from game to game and improving - which is part of why we have Rank start at the bottom and move up, to eventually catch your MMR. And the answer here isn't just to have MMR start at the bottom, because that would just mean that low MMR was a constantly whirlpool of actual low MMR players and higher MMR players moving their way up, generating a ton of unbalanced matches.

  2. MMR needs to change quickly, Rank does not. For MMR to work correctly, it needs to be both fluid and responsive to loss and win streaks. This means that if you drop 4 games in a row, even if it was just because you had some bad luck, too bad - you're dropping down. Sure, it'll go back up if you keep playing games, but hitting those troughs hurts a lot. Similarly, you might go on a lucky streak and fly upwards - only to get stomped a couple times and fall back down. It can become very hard to say what your MMR "is" - MMR stabilizes over time, but it jumps around a lot more than Rank does.
    With Rank, we can include things like demotion protection and promo series to make your rank more stable. Loss streaks aren't as punishing, and win streaks do less to inflate players' ranks.

  3. Showing MMR doesn't address all the concerns with matchmaking. MMR is only one component we have to consider with matchmaking, including who is looking for a game, how long everyone's been waiting, who is grouped with someone else, etc. Showing would give more information, but still not the complete story. Look, I clearly love giving overly long explanations as much as the next guy, but even if we gave full context on why every match was made, people would still disagree with our reasoning, because everyone values things differently. Someone might be OK with waiting in queue for 15 minutes to get their perfect match, and someone else might think that any wait over 30 seconds means it's time to quit and play something else.

Hope this helps explain a bit more, and I just want to emphasize again - we agree that the difference between MMR and Rank is something we can improve. We're going to be making a lot of tune-ups to Ranked over this season and the next, and that is certainly one of the issues at the front of our minds.

over 4 years ago - /u/RiotIAmWalrus - Direct link

Originally posted by IxdrowZeexI

I am still waiting for a valid explanation why we even need two different "elos" and why the imprecise one is the more powerfull one (it decides wit who we can duo and which rewards we get in the end)

I just wrote a long post on why we think MMR and Rank have value, and we wouldn't necessarily show MMR. But as for why we use Rank for things like premades and rewards - it's the one that's visible, and we want you to have the information you need to know who you can group with and what you'll get at the end of the year.

over 4 years ago - /u/BarackProbama - Direct link

Originally posted by RiotIAmWalrus

Hey there! I'm the designer in charge of Ranked, so I can speak pretty directly to this. To start, I totally get the pain you're feeling here - seeing players with really different ranks in your game feels like garbage, even if we tell you that the MMR makes it fair. We want to solve this problem by getting MMR and Rank closer together, something we'll be talking about more over this season. But there are some really good reasons we don't just show MMR:

First, check out this post from a couple years ago where Riot Gortok goes over this question: https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2018/02/dev-matchmaking-real-talk/ . I think that answer holds up pretty well, but I'll also give some of my own reasons. Strap in, this is gonna get long:

  1. MMR is meant to measure your progress, not display it. For MMR to measure skill correctly, it has to do a lot of things that, if you were watching the entire time, feels pretty awful. The easiest example is a new player. When a new player enters the system, we don't have enough info to match them correctly yet, so we put them close to the middle of the pack and move them based on results. But if that new player is worse than average, their MMR starts at one point and then drops. And drops. And drops, until they reach a fair match.
    But if you look at how that player is playing, their MMR is not reflecting their story. They're typically getting better from game to game and improving - which is part of why we have Rank start at the bottom and move up, to eventually catch your MMR. And the answer here isn't just to have MMR start at the bottom, because that would just mean that low MMR was a constantly whirlpool of actual low MMR players and higher MMR players moving their way up, generating a ton of unbalanced matches.

  2. MMR needs to change quickly, Rank does not. For MMR to work correctly, it needs to be both fluid and responsive to loss and win streaks. This means that if you drop 4 games in a row, even if it was just because you had some bad luck, too bad - you're dropping down. Sure, it'll go back up if you keep playing games, but hitting those troughs hurts a lot. Similarly, you might go on a lucky streak and fly upwards - only to get stomped a couple times and fall back down. It can become very hard to say what your MMR "is" - MMR stabilizes over time, but it jumps around a lot more than Rank does.
    With Rank, we can include things like demotion protection and promo series to make your rank more stable. Loss streaks aren't as punishing, and win streaks do less to inflate players' ranks.

  3. Showing MMR doesn't address all the concerns with matchmaking. MMR is only one component we have to consider with matchmaking, including who is looking for a game, how long everyone's been waiting, who is grouped with someone else, etc. Showing would give more information, but still not the complete story. Look, I clearly love giving overly long explanations as much as the next guy, but even if we gave full context on why every match was made, people would still disagree with our reasoning, because everyone values things differently. Someone might be OK with waiting in queue for 15 minutes to get their perfect match, and someone else might think that any wait over 30 seconds means it's time to quit and play something else.

Hope this helps explain a bit more, and I just want to emphasize again - we agree that the difference between MMR and Rank is something we can improve. We're going to be making a lot of tune-ups to Ranked over this season and the next, and that is certainly one of the issues at the front of our minds.

It really wasn't that long. But it was pretty smart.

over 4 years ago - /u/SapMagic - Direct link

Originally posted by BarackProbama

It really wasn't that long. But it was pretty smart.

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