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last death was avoidable he just had to sell all his items and stack mr and hp /s
last death was avoidable he just had to sell all his items and stack mr and hp /s
I don't think hp/s was going to do it for him. He died in like .1 seconds.
What's your stance on this?
In general if fed carries can’t oneshot squishies how are they meant to kill tanks? Like yeah your tactical gameplay is completely shot when you’re Ashe here but also if AP Ekko doesn’t actually obliterate you with Deathcap Lichbane Rocketbelt Void, then why even bother building anything but tank on him?
I’m back to playing bot lane this season and so far I’ve never felt like any of my deaths are unreasonable. Fed assassins do hella damage. Good. Otherwise they’re not viable.
In this exact case I’m not sure a new mechanic like 50% damage reduction in the fountain would be an improvement to the game. Maybe. But the game is already over when you start getting fountain snipes so just let them have the high point.
Thanks for letting him know he's allowed to sleep.
Thanks I’m headed to bed now. Good night!
Not to mention that ekko’s job isn’t to kill tanks. What kinda logic is “if they can’t one shot squishy’s how are they supposed to kill tanks”. Assassins have burst they aren’t meant to kill tanks.
Ok let’s keep going then: if fed Ekko can’t kill squishies quickly when ahead why ever pick Ekko? Seriously what damage numbers do you need to give the champion for 2 maxed abilities and 600 AP and Lich Bane to not meaningfully threaten 1500 hp and 42 mr? Why build a Deathcap when the AP ratios are 0.15. Why pick the champion at all when the base damages are all 190?
The point still stands that marksmen are very viable. The point still stands that marksmen have the same average durability as mages. What one-shots Ashe also one-shots Syndra. Vayne is currently the single best ban in the game. Outside of Yasuo and very specific single-champion duos there are no strong farming melee champions in bot lane.
Assassins and burst champions one-shotting squishy champions is healthy for the game.
idk Phreak, u played that game longer than I did but u seem to have forgotten that tanks should be durable against "carries" with unreliable DPS, or am I wrong?
Maybe we can soon return to the Rock-Paper-Scissor system that League used to be and not have "fed" carries literally destroy everything in their eyesight
Show me a Rengar that can win a teamfight by going through the Leona first and I’ll show you a team that already had a 90% winrate from their gold lead.
Show me a split pusher that can’t threaten a side lane against Ornn and I’ll show you a tank meta.
Assassins can’t kill tanks fast. But being unable to scratch them is not something you actually want.
In general fed carries should oneshot squishies, yes but how? With just a E+Q combo as Lux in the video or should she also use her ultimate at least? LUL
Btw, let's not forget that Lux is an old champion and her kit is already uncreative. If you land your Q, it's guaranteed to land rest of her abilities. She is gonna oneshot Ashe even if she had to use her R but this kind of gameplay is nonbalanceable in modern League.
Seems pretty balanceable to me. There exist numbers where her win rate hits 50%. She’s extremely popular and her ban rate is usually very low when her winrate is fair (she’s currently OP). Seems like a solid champion design to me. Fountain dives notwithstanding, just dodge the Q. It’s more counter-play than most damage champions give you. Champions are allowed to be reliable.
The defensive options for Marksman champions are slim, and even items like Shieldbow do not ensure sufficient survivability in team fights (the longer the match continues). As a Master ADC, I can not even remember the last time I bought Maw or Mecurial (except mainly on Ezreal), rarely GA; just because of the fact how the current items restrict you to build those items without stunting your scaling (Zeal items are also underwhelming except maybe PD). That is why Marksman mainly build BT as a sort of defensive option, for the lifesteal/shield (yet, Assassins just have to build Fang to counter our shields lol); but also to reach the 100% crit.
ADCs also have been really neglected over the last seasons, they had small patches here and there, big adjustments for Aphelios, Senna or Jinx, but overall, the role has not really benefitted from fundamental changes to tackle core issues (although it was in a certain way intended). But all of those core issues still exist, or became worse, and it is getting difficult for players, especially for new ones, to learn and enjoy the Marksman role. And to tell them: Switch to another role, is really not the way we should treat the player base.
PS: Phreak, you are one of my fav casters, really glad you mentioned your opinion, and I hope this issue about Marksman will be resolved somehow.
I think allowing Marksmen to take a DPS hit to ramp survival would be a good thing as a frustration outlet. I agree Scimitar and Maw feel bad. That said, Wit’s End is still exceptional.
But regardless bot laners don’t need to switch to another role. Marksmen dominate the overall power level of bot lane. There are like four champions that can compete with the entire crew of marksmen down there.
First off I appreciate the response! I just have one more question, isn't ADC the role meant to deal with the tanks? If GP can one shot squishies AND kill tanks, whats the downside to playing him? I'm not being obstinate, just curious. He does well in lane last time I checked as well, but I could be off on that.
In general, melee champions tend to have either poor target access (fighters) or poor sustained damage (assassins). Gangplank is certainly a bit of a special child, but I'd consider him a caster. Technically he has a melee auto-attack but he's really all about Q/E/R for damage and occasionally autos things when he's forced to, but you're not going to see him right-clicking a Lux any time soon.
So as a mage, yeah he's a bursty boy with decent target access and a big unreliability problem via barrels. If he hits the barrel chains or does a 5Head setup, then he's going to be rewarded. But the oneshot builds have at most Trinity Force or Shieldbow for durability so that champion isn't much more durable than the Ashe he's killing.
Gangplank's weakness is that he doesn't actually win all that often. ~48% win rate. So as much as he has really high points, it's sort of a montage problem: Sometimes he oneshots and looks like the best champion in the game. But that isn't happening in every fight.
No idea what point you are trying to make exactly, but the comment I replied to contained a real Riot like bandaid fix where you want to give fountain 50% damage reduction in response to Lux oneshotting the Ashe with just Q-E
Do you not ever felt like the game could need a little tone down in the damage department? Every game I play is decided by one player getting completely blown up because he was out of position, and it doesnt matter if its a squishy carry or a durable tank, they just die in a matter of 1-3 seconds.
Now you could say it was the same in Season 3/4/5 whatever, the key difference is that shit happened back then in like ultra late game and I think thats reasonable so the game doesnt get dragged out for an eternity.
But right now people get blown up as early as minute 20.
I think investigating the actual damage in the game is worthwhile. I can remember when items were far less efficient and the only way to get flat armor penetration was Brutalizer. I remember when there were no fighter items so Renekton and co. literally just build Brutalizer into full tank because there were no other applicable items. There was a time when every mage ran Magic Resist Marks and Athene's Unholy Grail first item so they all had 73 baseline magic resist from the first item onward.
Itemization has gotten more specialized. Fighters can deal meaningful damage late game without having 2k total hp now. Mage itemization has probably landed at higher damage overall but I'm not certain.
I know every time I've investigated support damage, it's going down. Season over season, supports tend to be dealing less damage than the year before. But considering at one point in time the only flat armor penetration item was Youmuu's Ghostblade, I wouldn't be surprised if assassins are more deadly than before.
To be clear, I don't think 50% damage reduction on the fountain makes sense. I think strategic play needs to have consequences so someone getting caught should tend to result in them dying, though many champions have ways of getting out, e.g. Malphite ult.
I hope it was restful.
I feel pretty good, thanks!
There exist numbers where her win rate hits 50%
I don't think 50% is balanced without a context. Lux is a fairly easy champion to play. Players don't have to spam her to maintain their performance on her and random pickers can also have a quite easy time playing her. So her win rates should hit higher than 50% to be considered balanced.
According u.gg her all ranks win rates on patch 11.23:
MID SUPPORT 53.28% 52.46% She is not OP, contrarily "balanced" now. That's because of recent trends in League. I don't think 50% WR Akali is balanced.
Lux is:
She's certainly stronger than the average champion right now. Maybe less frustrating, but certainly more successful.
But isn't there a difference between a fed Ekko using his entire combo to kill someone, and GP landing one barrel? I remember back in the day, a GP landing a crit barrel meant that you had to recall or lifesteal back up, not literally get obliterated. Sure, Saber could have built Shieldbow, so that's on him, but the whole reason Shieldbow is so needed in the first place is because a gust of wind kills you nowadays. Is it really right that Lux oneshot him with just Q and E? A few seasons ago, she would have needed to invest her ult, or at least an auto attack.
To be fair Gangplank landing a barrel is literally every offensive cooldown he has save ultimate. And I’m most cases it’s 2-3 charges of E and winning the barrel timing vs. his opponents.
Citation needed for Lux. If you think damage has gone up then prove it. Which items did Lux buy and where are her bases and ratios compared to [pick a year]? That’s kinda the beauty of these arguments: you can irrefutably prove how damage output has changed and you have all the available data.
As I said earlier, I’ve done this for support and it’s been downward. IDK where it’s gone for other roles but you can look it up.
It's not necessarily the case that raw stats have gone up, but more that everyone has a bunch of hidden damage and squishier now.
Let's compare Lux in the last clip to season 7 for reference. Since season 7, duo lane xp has been nerfed twice, which means Ashe would probably have been one level higher at that point. The difference between level 14 and level 15 is about 100hp.
On top of that, runes reforged meant that you no longer have 9 armor + 12 magic resist per game. Accounting for the mr/lvl compensation buff, Ashe would have had (12 - 0.5 * 14 = 5) more magic resist at level 14.
At 3 items, Lux would most likely have had Morello, Ludens and Deathcap, compared to the Ludens, Horizon, and Deathcap she had in this game (I'm ignoring the void staff component for simplification, but it just makes the problem worse). Morello gave 100 flat AP, compared to 15 less AP today in horizon focus, but 10% damage amplification. Deathcap gives 5% less AP today, which in her case is about 15AP. Ludens Echo gave 20 more AP but 16 less MPen (at 3 items). Comparing now to then:
-50 AP (items)
+20 AP (eyeball collection)
+21 Magic Pen (adding the magic resist nerf here)
+10% Damage Amplification (items)
-3% Damage Amp (old masteries)
+100 flat damage (lower hp on Ashe)
+40 flat damage (cheap shot)
I'm missing some more things, but the deeper you dig in, the more small things add up in today's damage. Like the fact that turret plating and bounties have increased the amount of gold people have today, which means faster item spikes and more damage. I don't feel like doing the exact math on Lux's ratios right now, but given those numbers, one can see the crazy amount of penetration and amplification modern builds have. This doesn't even account for Lux's other penetration item, or the fact that she could have done even more damage, had she chosen a different keystone (such as first strike, which provides an additional 10% amplification).
Thanks for doing this. There are a few other consideration to give, though, which include Lux's flat MPen Marks and AP Quints from 2017.
But yeah, this probably does line up with mages being more lethal than before.