[2020] Sneaky's thoughts about ADC role.

AD Carry main here. Still don't see a problem with this.

Jhin is not a duelist. What's more, he's built for ranges longer than this. He explicitly has two abilities with 3000+ range. Rift Walk goes 500. I can't tell from the video, but I'd bet Rift Walk is stacked at least twice before the fight starts. Then Sneaky walks up next to the brush that he's in with his E and trinket both down so he can't check brush.

So why is the duel close? Because he took the actual worst possible fight. He eliminated every single advantage his character has, gave every possible advantage to the Kassadin, and EVEN THEN, still won because of a gold lead. That's why the duel is close. You fought a multi-stack Riftwalk Kassadin by letting him engage on you. You've been playing this game for ten years and you can't answer why the duel was close? I know you're better than that Sneaky. I know you're smarter than that.

You're absolutely right that if the roles were reversed you'd get slapped. But you'd also know not to face check a Kassadin with Rift Walk stacks.

Meanwhile, in the real game of League of Legends, we aren't playing "Jhin vs. Kassadin 1v1." There's a reason Jhin isn't played as a Top Laner while Lucian, Vayne, and Tristana are. Jhin isn't built for 1v1s. He's built for team fights and supporting his team from off screen where he's literally untouchable. Willfully forsaking every single advantage your character has and then going "DAE RIOT BALANCE?!" makes you foolish.

For reference, if you're Lucian and you intend to take on this matchup, you would have gotten a Maw. Maybe even Scimitar on top. Life Steal regardless with Ruined King. The fight would be SUPER not close. Lucian would come out above half HP even with face checking the Kassadin and letting him open with Rift Walk.

Let's circle back to a real game of League of Legends. Exactly what output do you expect Kassadin to have in a teamfight here? He's going to get instantly stunned by a Skarner, chain stunned by Jhin, and die in literally four auto-attacks as shown here. You know, the real game of League of Legends where you coordinate with your team, use range and positioning advantages, and have more than half your abilities available to you. Super not close. I could win the game in Sneaky's shoes in a teamfight and I'm garbage.

It honestly feels like every "DAE AD CARRIES SUCK?" clip I see here is of people who actively int themselves into enemy assassins and wonder why they can't just take their hands off their mice and win. I really don't get it.

Yep, Jhin is so outrageously ahead that he gives Kassadin the free engage so that he can lose half his health before reacting and still wins. Sounds like a slam dunk to me.

Here's the screengrab from the game state after Jhin's first auto. He gave Kassadin this FOR FREE https://imgur.com/a/X4AzTn9. He fully opted into this situation. Kassadin in no way could force that engage. Only Sneaky could put himself there.

Yes. I've been playing a bunch of bot lane again recently, including Clash this last weekend. I feel super impactful.

Assassins are really deadly, yes. Lethality itemization has gotten stronger, so if the Zed is good, I'm probably always dead to him unless I have Chain Vest and a PD. But I've also known that Zed is in the game since the end of Champion Select and can make sure I buy those items by the time we're in team fights.

If I'm behind, well, that's how the game works. I'm not very useful on a 0/3 Xerath, either.

I've never felt AD Carries were bad. I still don't. Yasuo is a bit too strong in bot lane maybe, but he's like #14 in pick rate in that lane, so it's not that big of a deal.

1. OK.
2. Yes, it's a reference to if you're going to build for the 1v1, there are items for that. As we see, Kassadin was building (slowly) toward anti-physical damage. Jhin was building toward tank-killing. For the price of that LDR, he could have had Hexdrinker (well, not with PD, but you know what I mean) and over 1k gold left over, which makes that fight easier.
3. Then he can press W to stop recall from the brush and wait for Skarner. I don't want to get into nit-picking specific gameplay interactions because that's not what this is about. The point still stands that he face-checked an assassin with two completed offensive items and blue buff while Sneaky's only defensive item was two Ruby Crystals worth of shielding in a PD. The point remains that you're playing into Kassadin's combat pattern. A 13-0 Xerath face checking a Kassadin with Luden's, Deathcap, Void Staff, Mejai's, and Sorc Shoes would also have a hard time winning that fight. This isn't Jhin-specific. This isn't marksman-specific. This is a squishy face-checking an assassin.
4. Yes, as per above. Mid Lucian often rushes Hexdrinker in AP matchups.
5. Then as they disengage you take their base. It's not like disengaging removes all downsides. Kassadin doesn't have wave clear. Pushing is easy.
6. The big thing to keep in mind is a very pertinent question: In what way are you ahead?. Jhin was up a bunch of offensive items. Indeed, Jhin dealt way more damage than Kassadin with just four auto-attacks than Kassadin dealt with his entire kit. But Jhin did not buy defensive items. Jhin could just as easily have been level 14 and 0/4/0 with a Phantom Dancer and nothing else, and would have taken exactly as much damage as this Jhin did. If Sneaky found it important to 1v1 against Kassadin, or any other mage assassin, he could have went Maw instead of PD, or gone for QSS instead of LDR, or Death's Dance, or any other of the half-dozen viable defensive options for marksmen. I'm not saying they're always the right choice, but he built very few defensive options against an offensive character and people are surprised that he took a lot of damage?
7. https://lolalytics.com/lol/tierlist/?lane=bottom&patch=30 Click "Pick" at the top to sort by pick-rate. You'll have to scroll down a while to get to a non-marksman for the vast majority of players. Even in the smallest sample possible (strictly Challenger), the highest pick-rate non-marksman is Syndra at #7 with a 7% pick-rate. In Challenger only. So many mages.

I think this is a worthwhile discussion, so here's what I think is relevant here:

Jhin is unequivocally more powerful here. This is the best possible fight Kassadin could ever hope to get and still lost. Granted, it was close, but the scales were tipped absurdly in Kassadin's favor here, yet gold in inventory won the day.

In any other remotely fair situation, this isn't even a discussion. Keep in mind, Skarner didn't touch the guy. He got solo killed in four basic attacks. Maybe a Q for good measure. He didn't use summoners. He just clicked on him until Kassadin died. That's the gold lead at work. Sneaky could have taken his hands off his keyboard and mouse and won that fight. (Small asterisk: The Jhin Q might have been required).

The point I totally agree with you on here is a fundamental disagreement of design philosophy. I want to break apart four concepts:

1. Stop talking about kills, deaths, and cs. The real comparison is level and value of inventory. I don't care how they earned their gold, how they earned their XP, etc. CS has no inherent value. Gold has to inherent value. What did they buy? That's the comparison. Please, in the interest of actual rational discussion, compare the actual material differences: Levels and value of inventory. Cooldowns and such when relevant. A 18-0 Zed who hasn't shopped is weaker than a 0/2 Zed with a Duskblade.

2. Gold only makes you "ahead" on the stats it's spent on. Sneaky got a Phantom Dancer. At level 14 that's a 440 point shield. Otherwise, Sneaky's large gold lead is spent purely on offense and movement speed. So tank-wise, Sneaky is as durable as a level 14 0/12/0 Jhin who has Phantom Dancer and Berserker's Greaves. This is a fundamentally important concept to consider as most AD Carry itemization forsakes durability in every slot. So we have a sort of corollary to the first point: Mentioning kills and CS doesn't really do anything to say, "Wait, how did Sneaky almost die to Kassadin?!" Well, it's because his defensive stats are a Phantom Dancer passive.

Circling back to the "gold makes you ahead" point: Sneaky's items put him in a spot where he can solo kill the opposing mid laner in four auto-attacks. That seems like a really powerful item lead. Keep in mind this is a Kassadin with a Rod of Ages, a Seraph's shield, and a couple Cloth Armors. Kassadin's got a decent amount of durability there and Sneaky's item lead means he kills him in four shots.

1. Thanks Reddit
2. For not letting me continue numbered lists

3. When should champions get to ignore assassins? I don't mean this as a rhetorical "gotcha." I mean legitimately, how much do you believe someone has to invest into defense to get to ignore assassin damage? Because whether or not Sneaky is at 14k gold in inventory or 6k gold in inventory, his only investment into defense is a 440 point PD shield. How much does Sneaky have to invest to no longer be threatened by Kassadin when the Kass gets the drop on him? Obviously over time Kassadin will continue to grow as he adds items like Lich Bane or Void Staff. But what do you think the expenditure has to be to beat a champion whose only goal is to kill isolated squishy targets?

4. This isn't marksman-only. This applies to all squishy champions. At all levels, Jhin has more health than Xerath, Syndra, or Ahri. Three mages I picked out of a hat, but it'll apply to the vast majority. Even Cassiopeia has less health than Jhin. If marksmen are so bad, why is it that mages are supposedly more viable? 95% of them have the exact same MR values, and now with the recent marksman health buffs, virtually all marksmen have more health. It's not armor either, by the way. Jhin also has more armor than any of those four at all levels. Is itemization limited? Well, some mages forsake their offensive boot options to go Mercury Treads. Maybe they invest into defensive runes and stat shards? So far I'm not seeing anything that marksmen are uniquely deprived of. Oblivion Orb, Morellonomicon, and Liandry's all have less health than most levels of PD shield. Banshee's Veil is pretty good, but now we're making the argument that "marksmen are bad because they can't buy Banshee's Veil."

The only difference between this fight where Sneaky is really far ahead and one where he's playing Xerath instead is that he actually wins this fight. Can you imagine this one where he face checks Kassadin as Xerath? He applies a half-second stun and then dies to the Rift Walk chase.

He got solo killed by the character he's supposed to counter face checking him. IDK what your definition of useful is.

Eh, minions have always been a far greater source of experience than champions. In pro play, supports often leave the ADC alone, thus closing that gap somewhat. It's something that could be discussed, but I don't currently have an issue with it.

IDK ask literally every pro team ever who still pick them in 99% of every game they ever play.

It matters because League of Legends is not an arena brawler. Range and distance matters. Jhin not using either is a direct nerf to how he interacts with other champions.

Lucian, Vayne, Tristana, Kalista, and Jayce are all fairly common solo lane marksmen.

Lethality Varus in mid lane, Kindred/Graves for jungle. On-hit Teemo and On-hit Neeko also probably fit the bill as well. As long as your desired output is "I'm primarily a ranged auto-attacker" there's a dozen or so scattered across top/mid/jungle.

I wouldn't go Maw first item in any case except in a 1v1 lane, and even then I'd probably stop at Hexdrinker and finish other items first.

I think almost every finished ADC build needs 1-2 defensive items. Sometimes that's Maw + GA. Sometimes that's PD + Scimitar. Death's Dance and Bloodthirster also count.

I agree with you that items have gotten stronger on the offensive front. However, we've also been given a lot of good defensive items, too. But to be clear: Itemization has got substantially stronger in League of Legends. That's probably the single biggest source of power creep in the game. It's something absolutely worth examining.

But to be clear AD Carries have defensive items, too. Hexdrinker/Maw didn't used to exist. QSS/Scimitar didn't used to exist. Phantom Dancer and Bloodthirster didn't used to have shields on them. Rapid Firecannon didn't used to exist. If you wanted a spell shield you had to buy a Banshee's Veil with no offensive stats on it, as opposed to the much neater Edge of Night we have now. Supports didn't have access to meaningful amounts of AP or Heal/Shield Power like they do now. There are lots of things on the other side of the equation.

Meanwhile, mages always had Abyssal Scepter or other hybrid AP/MR items (Banshee's today). They used to rush Athene's Unholy Grail, with AP/MR/CDR/Mana on it. Rylai's has existed as long as I can remember. Sorc Shoes used to not be worth buying, meaning mages really only ever went defensive boots.

Honestly to my memory, marksmen have gotten better hybrid durability options while mages have gotten worse or remained about the same in that respect.

As one last point, Life steal is not typically an anti-burst mechanic. In the Sneaky vs. Kassadin situation, Sneaky is getting maybe 200 health off of life stealing a full health Kassadin at 12% and only because his damage was almost exclusively auto-attack based and really really ahead on items. More typically, life steal keeps you topped off between fights and is good against poke.

Cassiopeia, Ryze, and Azir would all fit that bill.

I think Death's Dance is almost always better than BT as well but 350 flat health is pretty good. The shield lasts a super long time and you can still hit jungle camps to get it.

Not 30% more. You have to take a ~25-40% haircut on that because of armor and MR you already have.

Right I mean it's vaguely accurate. Just 30% is only ever the amount if they brought you to exactly 0 with penetration. Just worth keeping in mind when you compare to flat health, which is a pretty straightforward calculation in most cases.