Original Post — Direct link

With the release of rotation having had a, lets say, mixed reception; and especially with the stream we just had that left many things still unanswered, and the upcoming interview people might want to prepare for, I thought now would be a good time to actually take a proper deep dive into rotation, the proposed reasons for doing it and how much they hold up, especially now that we had time to see them in action. Perhaps in doing so, we can figure out why this whole thing was so polarising.

Now we'll be focusing specifically on the reasons Riot gave for it, that is to say, rotation on it's own, with no references to what games do and don't have rotation, its history, or anything like that. We're doing it like this because the frame of reference every player has is incredibly different. Some, like me, have played card games for well over a decade, and know their way around pretty much every card game out there, but others might have started with only LoR, and know nothing of other card games. I want to make sure everyone is on the same page, so let's cast all those preconceptions aside, and look at rotation for what it is.

Now, when it comes to the reasonss, I think it's only fair to simply use the list the devs themselves outlined in the first rotation article.


Analysing the reasons for rotation

So the proposed reasons are as follows:

1. Rotation helps prevent powercreep.

2. Rotation opens up design space.

3. Rotation allows for underplayed champs to find a niche.

4. Balance, bugfixing and interaction maintenance is harder to do without rotation.


1. Rotation helps prevent powercreep.

Lets start with the first one. “Rotation helps prevent powercreep”. The way the reasoning for this claim goes here is simple. “Whenever you release a new set, you want the cards to see play, for the set to sell/have an impact. And without rotation, the only way they have an impact is if they're stronger than what you already have, and with each set stronger than the last one, you get powercreep.” Theres a million ways to word this, but this is essentially the base claim.

Now, there are three odd parts here that many of you might already have noticed. For one, how does rotation change any of it? After all, if every set has to be stronger than the last one to sell, then the only way rotation could help here is if every new set rotates ALL of the sets before it. But with yesterdays stream, we already have it confirmed that that's not how they're doing it, with cards only being available for rotation in their second year.

And of course, balance changes exist. If you want to shake up the meta, you can do what LoR has already been doing all this time. And there's no doubt that LoR will keep using this exact tool, even with rotation. After all, cards only rotate once a year. What happens inbetween? So if powercreep is a concern, we can simply use balance to create small power vacuums between sets, instead of powercreeping, to allow new cards to have an impact.

And then there is the other oddity, and that's, why do decks need to be stronger to see play or have an impact? League players specially should be questioning this, after all new league champs don't just make all previous ones irrelevant, and instead just find their own niche. Because even in league, while it's a competitive game, it's ultimately a game. And a game exists to be fun, first and foremost. All you need to do for new cards and decks to see play, is to make sure they're fun, and offer something no other deck does.

In summary, I think it's safe to say that this proposed reason just doesn't work. The premise is full of holes, and rotation isn't really a tool that would help here even if it wasn't. I understand where this misconception comes from, but it's ultimately just a misconception.


2. Rotation opens up design space

There's another aspect to this point that we will cover in point 4, so let's instead focus on just what Riot described when talking about this point. Specifically, cards with “equivalent replacements”, and cards competing with “all-star staples”. In essence, the claim here is that, without rotation, there are certain design spaces you can't really print new cards in, because cards that already are very similar exist, and you either powercreep those old cards, or the new cards can't compete. Cards like Vile Feast.

Now unlike the previous proposed reason, the claim itself here is fine. It's true that without rotation you can't keep printing slight variations of essentially the same card without powercreeping or have them end up irrelevant. But then the question is, what exactly is the point of doing that? The purpose of staples is to be generically good cards that build the foundation upon which you build unique decks. They're not interesting because they're not supposed to be.

This is especially puzzling given that Riot in the same point talks about wanting to keep providing players with “puzzles” to solve in deckbuilding, but rotating a staple and printing a new one doesn't really give us a new puzzle, you just replace the staple with the almost identical staple. The point of providing puzzles in deckbuilding is that you create new decks and strategies that people figure out, not that you change the colour of the foundation from beige to slightly brighter beige.

Overall, this reason is also just unconvincing. It's at least technically true unlike the previous one, but the stated benefit simply doesn't achieve what their claimed goal is, and as such it's unclear how exactly this is intended to be a positive.


3. Rotation allows for underplayed champs to find a niche.

Pretty much what it says on the tin. The claim here is that in a rotation environment, previously unplayed champs could maybe find new champ combinations, decks, or just a less hostile environment to find success where they previously couldn't. The example Riot used here specifically was Udyr, though I'm sure you could use other champions as examples. I'd love to say more, but this is really where the reasoning for this claim ends.

Well, this is one where we can only talk preliminary results, after all, it'll take a while for the meta to truly solidify. But this has just not happened. If you look at the top 25 decks in the last 2 days, there is only one champ that stands out as being a previously unplayed champ having found themselves a new niche and that's Fizz. But Fizz found that niche not because of rotation, but because of Samira. And as for Udyr? Yeah unfortunately he is just as underpowered as always.

And this makes sense. After all, if a champ was previously underpowered, you'd have to rotate every single champ that isn't underpowered just for them to have a chance of seeing play. And that didn't happen, of course, because that would be too much of an upheaval. There are ways to make underpowered champs see play, buffs, new support cards, but rotation just isn't one of them.

There's not really much more to add here, it is in theory possible that in the future, this somehow changes, but as of right now? This proposed reason simply isn't holding up,


4. Balance, bugfixing and interaction maintenance is harder to do without rotation.

This one is framed less as a benefit to rotation and more as a detriment of not having rotation, but roundabout as it is, it still is ultimately a proposed reason for rotation. The reasoning is once again simple: “As more and more cards are added, the amount of potential interactions between cards increase exponentially, making it more and more difficult for the team to keep up with these interactions, hurting their ability to playtest, prevent bugs and maintain consistency. If you rotate, the amount of interaction is restricted to an upper bound, making it once again possible to keep up”.

Now for this one, I honestly don't think I even need to say much, because when Riot's article on rotation first came out, pretty much everyone spotted a big issue here. Eternal still exists. For rotation to work, Eternal needs to be a properly supported and maintained gamemode, which means you still need to worry about all of that when making new sets. Doing rotation doesn't actually help here, it makes it harder on the dev team because on top of having to still do all these things for the eternal format, they now also have to do the same for standard. The only way rotation would be able to do anything here is if you intend to completely abandon Eternal, make it an unplayable mess you won't touch, but then you're not rotating cards, youre just deleting them.

In fact, this issue was brought up so much that it was one of the points of feedback Riot ended up addressing in the second article. And since then Riot has insisted that they won't abandon Eternal, and want it to be a fully fledged format, so if we are to take their word, this proposed reason is one they themselves ended up walking back. And if even Riot doesn't claim it as a reason to rotate anymore, it just isn't one. Not much more I can say here really.


Conclusion.

All in all, sadly these proposed reasons don't really hold up. I'm sure there are more potential reasons for rotation, perhaps Riot's devs have some they're keeping close to the chest, but without knowing them, we can't really talk about them. So instead, let's talk about the reception, and perhaps an alternative we can go for here.


Rotation's reception

As I think everyone is painfully aware, reception to rotation has been rather mixed. And by itself that's nothing special, every change has its supporters and detractors, but this is without a doubt the most polarised and split the community has been on anything since probably the games very announcement. And while this was expected, it does seem that no one is quite sure why it is so polarising, and in particular why the two sides have such wildly different views on rotation. But having now looked at how Riot's reasons for rotation hold up, I think I might have a potential explanation.

And it comes down to the benefits and detriments. The big problem we have with rotation right now is that while the detriments are obvious (you can't play your favourite champ anymore, balance is currently messy, regions are incredibly uneven in what they can do and what decks they can enable, and entire playstyles are gone alltogether), the benefits are much more nebulous. The ones Riot gave as reasons to rotate simply didn't hold up. Maybe they have more they haven't shared, but since we can't see those, we can't actually see what the benefit of rotation is, even in the long term.

So all we have to rely on is Riots words, and, indeed, references to other games with rotation. Which means that depending on your frame of reference, your view on rotation changes drastically. Those who associate rotation with specific games they see as particularly good have more inherent faith in rotation, those who lack that frame of reference instead can only judge it by it's merits, where it just doesn't do well currently.

Now, sadly this polarisation is something I don't really think can be fixed as is. Certainly, having a permanent, fully maintained and fully equivalent Eternal Ranked gamemode would go a long way (and is frankly an absolutely mandatory requirement to even be able to compare your rotation with that of magic), but Riot doesn't think they can do that. So instead, I want to propose an alternative. One that still gives us more formats, because having more formats is good. After all, variety is the spice of life. An alternative that, while it doesnt do anything about point 1 (not that it needs to), point 2 (because that one is a solution in search of a problem) or point 4 (since Riot walked this one back anyway), but does actually manage to address point 3.


Flipping the script: A suggested alternative

And that is a different kind of alternative gamemode. The problem we ran into with point 3, if you remember, is that for underpowered champs to be able to thrive, you would basically have to remove every actually good champ from the format. And that's just too massive of an upheaval. Or well, it is for the main gamemode. But what if we instead flipped the perspective around?

Instead of having Standard and Eternal, we would have Standard and Limited (though I would prefer a more evocative name than that). Standard becomes what we currently know as Eternal. A gamemode including all of the cards, forever. It would be the default gamemode, getting the most attention as it needs the most. Simply the way to play LoR, as you know and love.

But in addition to this gamemode, we get another gamemode, called “Limited”. This gamemode is a curated gamemode, requiring less attention as a result. Instead of being a gamemode where a lot of cards are rotated out, this would be a gamemode where we select cards to rotate in. It would be a place for cards and champs to have a second chance in a lower powered environment. A way to implement point 3, and perhaps allow Udyr to become the master of spirits he always was supposed to be.

While I'm sure there are still flaws to be found, it's an approach I think would be able to satisfy both sides. Or at least satisfy more people than the current approach does. Limited wouldn't need to be up only 1/3 of the time, because you have much more fine control over what is and isn't in it. It would be immediately distinct from rotation already, instead of having to wait quite a few years to finally find its identity like Riot has stated Eternal would need. It would even fix the current problem of skins becoming less appealing.

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about 1 year ago - /u/Dan_Felder - Direct link

Originally posted by CommonSatyr

Rotation and card games go hand and hand. It isn't getting reversed. Pretty much industry standard.

Hearthstone has it Magic the gathering has it. Pokemon has it

Yugioh doesn't have rotation I hear but I have not played in over a decade so idk how that works. Maybe they just have massive power creep idk

Maybe they just have massive power creep idk

They do. It's unbelievable the power level boost in the game now. While playing a single 1900 attack monters used to be powerful, now it's easy to special summon multiple much larger monsters with multiple negates or other effects built in within a single turn.

This is why most traps are unplayable in the meta unless you can activate them from the hand, because you can't afford to wait a turn to set them. Some folks love it, some prefer older formats, but everyone agrees the power creep is truly staggering.

EDIT - I was speaking in generalities, some traps are still so powerful they're worth the cost of being very slow, but there is a significant emphasis on hand-traps and spell cards or other ways to activate cards the turn you play them. Many classic traps or even types of traps have been power-crept out: with cards like Mirror Force and Call of the Haunted no longer being very popular in many decks. Mirror Force, a trap that stops an attack and destroys all your opponent's monsters in attack position, used to be on the forbidden/limited lists for a long time... And it was unlimited to 3 full copies in 2014. Things are even stronger now.

about 1 year ago - /u/Dan_Felder - Direct link

Originally posted by UNOvven

That is extremely incorrect. Traps are actually quite very strong right now, with Traptrix being a really good budget rogue deck, and one of the top meta decks being Labrynth. A trap-focused archetype (and no, the traps are not activated from hand). Not entirely sure how you got this wrong, do you not play YGO?

... The deck you linked has multiple hand-traps and an engine specifically based around using cards to set traps from the hand or deck and activate them within the same turn, bypassing the normal limits of traps that I was mentioning above. You're providing a perfect example of my point.

The very first card in the decklist is Labyrnth Cooclock which you can discard to specifically do this.

The second and third cards let you discard them to set an archetype-relevant card from your hand OR deck onto the feld, searching for the trap of your choice.

Put them together, and you aren't just doing what I said about activating the trap from your hand - you can actually activate traps before you even draw them, directly from the deck.

This is a great example of what modern yugioh needs to do to make people play a lot of trap cards in a deck. There are always going to be a few ultra-powerful exceptions too, obviously not all traps are unplayable, it's an exaggeration for effect - but this deck is one of the archetypes I had in mind; yes. It's filled with hand-traps and combos to activate deck traps.

about 1 year ago - /u/Dan_Felder - Direct link

Originally posted by UNOvven

Playing a single 1900 attack monster used to be powerful in 2004. Why are we talking about the games power increasing over 20 years as an example of "major powercreep"?

Why should the amount of time matter? I'm comparing how powerful the modern game is now to how powerful it was at launch. That's power creep.

It kind of seems like you're just looking to argue. If you don't agree that yugioh has significantly gone up in power to make new cards impact the meta, okay. I'll have to disagree.

about 1 year ago - /u/Dan_Felder - Direct link

Originally posted by UNOvven

Because the time matters to how "extreme" the powercreep is. Yes, YGO has powercreep. Every card game has powercreep. Some powercreep is inevitable. In Magic we went from red having 1 mana 2/1s with downside as premium creatures to red getting 1 mana 2/1s with upside as pack filler.

In MTG we also went from Counterspell to Cancel, and from Lightning Bolt to Searing Spear (both examples of cheaper spells getting rotated out and replaced with weaker versions that cost more mana). We went from Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Bargin to Phyrexian Arena. There are countless other examples.

Magic's creatures started as like 2/10 in power and many of its non-creatues started as like 11/10 in power. Creatures have gotten stronger over time, non-creatures have gotten weaker over time. If you look at the decklists in legacy and vintage formats, this is very easy to see; as most of the creatures in these decks are newer and most of the non-creatures are older. There are exceptions to both of course, espescially with some older tribe-oriented decks that don't see quite as much modern support, but the trend is pretty consistent.

If you take the strongest standard-legal decks from today and play it against the strongest standard-legal decks from older eras of MTG, the results are going to be much closer than similar time gaps in yugioh. 20 years ago MTG had Affinity in standard after all; and still largely played like the same game it does today. The difference in yugioh now to yugioh in 2004 is night and day.

I'm not sure why you're so opposed to the idea that yugioh has had substantial power creep over time? It's very clear and that doesn't mean it's a bad game, it's just the choice they made.

about 1 year ago - /u/Dan_Felder - Direct link

Originally posted by Timetofixcritalready

What classic traps or types of traps have been powercrept out? when i hear classic trap i think compulse, torrential, solemn judgment and bottomless, and all of those cards have had tournament success this month. mirror force ig, but mirror force became irrelevant much faster than any of those

Mirror Force is one of the great examples. It used to be one of the most powerful cards around, and now it's unlimited and barely used; along with most defensive "protect you from attack" traps - which used to be a significant staple of the game. Magic Cylinder, Sakaretsu Armor, etc.

Another example is Call of the Haunted - also unlimited these days when its close spell equivalent Premature Burial is Forbidden (banned, to those reading this unfamiliar with yugioh terminology). Call of the Haunted requiring a turn to set up is such a drawback now it's shrug-worthy but the same base effect with a lifepoint cost on a spell is bannable. The game's speed has increased that much over time. Premature Burial was always better than Call of the Haunted, but Call of the Haunted used to be a very playable card.

Some trap effects are so powerful and unique they've never been replicated by better spells (at least nothing that's stayed unbanned) or hand-traps, and thus are still worth playing; but their trap type is a significant drawback that decks must bypass or be compensated for with extreme power or "trap-matters" buildarounds.

about 1 year ago - /u/Dan_Felder - Direct link

Originally posted by UNOvven

Sure. And YGO went from pot of greed to Pot of Extravagance. Graceful charity to Allure of darkness. Royal Order to Vanity's Emptiness to still a few stupid floodgates. First few sets in any of those old card game were broken.

Not really. Non-creatures got weaker for a while. But in the last, oooh, where was the breakpoint, I wanna say 11 years, non-creatures got stronger. Youre right, looking at Legacy is a good idea to see this. The first sorcery to be banned since treasure cruise was Expressive Iteration this year. A standard card. Its why indomitable creativity is one of the best modern decks right now and only plays 2 non-creature spells not printed in the last 5 years.

That depends on what timeframe you use. If you took a YGO deck from today and played it vs Zoodiac, it would be much closer than Grixis midrange now vs Grixis midrange from Aether Revolt. Choosing a tier 0 deck does have this effect. Anyway, while youre right that YGO now is very different from YGO in 2004 (which makes sense, 2004 was shortly after release for YGO, the magic equivalent would be 1998), if you compare YGO now to YGO from 2013, a 10 year gap, its the same game and the power is not that far apart.

Thats not what Im opposed to. Im opposed to the framing of YGO as this super powercrept game that is just completely out of wack and unlike any other. Im especially opposed of this framing in the context of rotation since it ignores that if you compare YGO powercreep to Hearthstone powercreep, Hearthstone has it much worse. A 2014 deck in Hearthstone stopped being viable in 2014, in YGO it stopped being viable in 2019 (-ish, technically it topped in 2021 too, but it was built different and using a new engine so I dont count it). Again, if on a scale of 1-10 YGO powercreep is a 7, Hearthstone is a 9, bordering on a 10.

It seems like you're determined to hunt for the exceptions I already said exist, rather than look at the trends. Delve as a mechanic is easier to exploit in older formats and so, like Mental Misstep, was unusually powerful in those formats. It's not an example of overall power creep, the enablers for graveyard strategies in legacy are more powerful and thus synergize better with cards that use the graveyard as a cost.

Things will occassionally synergize with cards in larger formats in ways they don't in smaller ones. That's one of the key reasons why the power levels of larger formats get higher over time due to more combinatorial options.

As for pot of greed, this is why I didn't compare to MTG's power 9 - pot of greed is in a similar space. I instead compared to cards that weren't early mistakes of the game but rather existed as staple cards for many years after. Counterspell was still being printed in 7th edition, in 2001. Lightning Bolt was reprinted in 2011 into a standard legal set (bad idea). I included some combo engines too for variety, but I didn't grab Ancestral Recall or Black Lotus.

It seems like this isn't going anywhere. I can't possibly explain every possible card execption among tens of thousands. If you don't see the same general trends that I do, okay.

about 1 year ago - /u/Dan_Felder - Direct link

Originally posted by PickCollins0330

Have you seen Hearthstone? Or MTG? Like…powercreep is a staple. I’ve praised LoR for sometimes evading this. But pretending powercreep is some kind of thing that only Yugioh does this egregiously is just straight up bad faith. Like 1000% I do not believe for one second that a card game developer genuinely thinks this.

But pretending powercreep is some kind of thing that only Yugioh does this egregiously is just straight up bad faith. Like 1000% I do not believe for one second that a card game developer genuinely thinks this.

Good. I don't think that and didn't say that.

I do think if you compare standard tournament decks in MTG now to standard decks from 20 years ago, then do the same with yugioh's competitive decks now to 20 years ago, the difference in power level is much, much bigger in yugioh than in MTG.

I think people might be assuming that I'm saying that's a bad thing for yugioh. I don't think it necessarily is, it depends if you prefer the original form of yugioh with limited special summoning and few relevant extra deck monsters or the more modern versions with a lot more avenues of interaction and explosive plays.

about 1 year ago - /u/Dan_Felder - Direct link

Originally posted by UNOvven

Ah, my bad, I shouldn't have picked just the first Labrynth list I saw. See ... this is actually a non-standard list. Pretty much every card you are referring to is usually not played.

This is a standard Labrynth list. Cooclock, Stovie, and Chandraglier is not played. Its exclusively Arianna, Lady Labrynth and Lovely Labrynth. There is no activating traps from hand, or on the same turn they're set. There is searching it from the deck, but thats because YGO is all about tutoring, its kinda a signature thing (and has been since about 2014).

Im afraid its not, and I do apologise for misleading you by showing you a non-standard, suboptimal deck. What YGO actually needs to do to make people play a lot of trap cards ... is to make a good trap-based archetype. Thats it. Traps are still very good, its just that we havent had a good trap-based archetype since Paleozoic in 2016.

This whole "trap cards are unplayable in YGO" thing is one of those weird misconceptions non-YGO players have for some reason. That, and "YGOs powercreep is super insane!". Sure, YGO has some pretty major powercreep, but when 5-year old decks can still top tournaments, I struggle to call it "staggering". When I think "staggering" powercreep, I think "decks stop being viable after 1 year" levels of powercreep, like Hearthstone for example. That is a game with truly staggering powercreep.

Edit: Just for transparecies sake to see how non-standard a decklist this is, this is Team YCS Vegas, a tournament where we have multiple Labrynth lists available in written form (because videos suck for determing cards). You can click through them, of the 6 lists here 0 play any of those cards.

Yes, yugioh has to make a powerful trap-based archetype to make people play a lot of traps. It doesn't have to do that to make people play a lot of spell cards. This is my point.

If you look at all other decks on that list of decks you just provided, how many traps and how many spells does each include? By comparison, how many traps are in those main decks? Of those traps, how many only have an effect when set and then activated; rather than a way to play from hand, an effect they can get by banishing from the grave, or similar?

This list just reinforces the point I made. Heck, Mirror Force used to be too good to allow 3 copies of, and it's been unlimited for almost a decade now.

I don't know why you keep trying to nitpick every point like this. It doesn't feel productive.

about 1 year ago - /u/Dan_Felder - Direct link

Originally posted by Timetofixcritalready

battle traps became irrelevant not because of powercreep. they became irrelevant because we have actual backrow removal now. mirror force was bad even back then, torrential was the actually good one, and that one is still good.

premature burial is not banned because its a spell, its banned because its an equip spell. those can be searched and loopd. causes stupid combos. restricts design. better comparison is monster reborn, which is unbanned and no one plays it because it sucks. could go to 3, completely irrelevant just like call, except call is better.

nah. the traps that still see play have been replicated by better spells long ago. torrential is worse raigeki, raigeki is at 3, but people play torrential. compulse is also kinda worse raigeki (not really but close enough), sees play. traps are worth playing because theyre interaction thats hard to stop, no one plays backrow removal. them being traps isnt a drawback, most trap decks sucking is just the problem. but decks that can play flex cards play traps.

Good point on equip spells having different synergies, that's relevant for the comparison. Still, Call of the Haunted used to be very powerful and now you're suggesting even Monster Reborn (which is still limited) is too weak. Sounds like substantial power creep to me.

The improved power of backrow removal is another factor yes, those effects also got stronger.

I really didn't set out to get into a deep dive on the state of all traps across all decks in all yugioh though, I gave the first example off the top of my head to a person that said they stopped playing yugioh a long time ago; since most people of that era remember traps like mirror force being extremely powerful and now they aren't. I'm not trying to defend any more specific point than "yugioh has changed a lot and the decks are far more powerful now than they were, to the point that the play patterns of modern decks are substantially different than what people may remember yugioh playing like from a while ago."

about 1 year ago - /u/Dan_Felder - Direct link

Originally posted by UNOvven

But you do acknowledge that if you compare Hearthstones and YGOs powercreep, that Hearthstones is much more severe, right? Since using the same test youre using here on YGO and Hearthstone would result in beta Zoo vs Implock, and Burning Abyss vs, lets say, Swordsoul or Branded. One of these matches would be a 100-0 stomp if you ran it 100 times, the other would be closer to 80-20.

Just seems a bit weird that when you compare to a card game with rotation, you always choose magic, even though Riot already confirmed that unlike magic, you cant run both standard and eternal all the time with equal (or more for eternal, sometimes) support. When Hearthstone is much closer in that regard since it also doesnt have equal support for wild.

But you do acknowledge that if you compare Hearthstones and YGOs powercreep, that Hearthstones is much more severe, right?

No. Hearthstone's 9 years old. I'd say 2011 yugioh's top decks are much stronger compared to 2002 yugioh's top decks, than 2023 hearthstone decks to 2012 hearthstone decks (which is when hearthstone launched).

Implock is scarier than warlock aggro was at launch, but in that time frame yugioh went from tribute summoning for Summoned Skull beatdown to Plant Synchro, Six Samurai, Tengu Synchro, Blackwings, etc.

I have no idea how you could consider the increase in power to be bigger in hearthstone than in yugioh. I'm also not sure why it matters, not every game has the same goals and not every designer makes the same choices or avoids the same mistakes

You seem determined to find a 'gotcha' somewhere. I'm not sure why. I'm going to have to stop responding to this discussion, it's gone on for a very long time.

about 1 year ago - /u/Dan_Felder - Direct link

Originally posted by Baelirrin

Good post, but I think you are being a little unfair in the way you are arguing against some of these points.

Argument 1:

Firstly, the reason why new sets need to be impactful is that card games are not like other game genres, like MOBAs, for example. You can play a dozen league games with the same 10 champions, and they can turn out to be wildly different experiences. Card games do not have that much variance. Games you play against the same deck will start to feel samey much quicker. In other words, card games get stale much faster than other games, and thus need new content. This new content needs to shake up the decks that people are playing, or else players will get bored, and quit. Most players want to play decks that are powerful (which is why we see meta reports where 10 powerful decks make up almost half the play rate) , so if the new cards fail to produce powerful decks, most players will go back to playing established, powerful decks, and the game will feel stale. In short: powercreep is necessary in card games.

Rotation is not meant to eliminate powercreep completely. It is meant to slow powercreep down, and give the developers a sort of soft reset button they can press. The reason why rotation helps slow it down is that a new set that comes out will only be more powerful than the previous one on average. That is to say, a new set will not replace every card that saw play before with stronger ones. It replaces the weakest links. As a result, the pool of "good" cards becomes better and better not just in the sense that the most powerful cards become more powerful over time, but also in the sense that minimum requirement to be considered "good" becomes higher and higher, because new sets keep on weeding out the weakest of the "good" cards. Rotation removes some of the cards that were previously powerful, which gives newly released sets opportunities to slot in without needing to be as powerful as they would have to have been otherwise. Then, after a few sets have come out, and the power level of the game has risen, rotation comes around again to take some of the power away. Card games still tend to experience powercreep over time, but more slowly than they would otherwise.

Argument 2:

One very important point that is missing is that one of the things that open up design space is removing cards that prevent developers from printing more good cards that fit into the same archetypes. The poster child of this: Ezreal. As soon as there is a critical mass of good, cheap spells in PnZ (bonus points if burst speed) Ezreal starts to do extremely disgusting things, so this limits the kinds of fun PnZ spells the developers can print. Solution: remove Ezreal from the standard card pool. It is very worth noting that while this is true in principle, this is a point where it is very debatable whether or not the specific rotation set we got achieved this goal. Some potentially problematic cards and champions (Nami, Shelly, Akshan) remain in Standard.

Additionally, we have to remember the fundamental problem of card games: they tend to get stale. At some point, it does get boring to have 3 copies of Vile Feast in every SI deck and it is more interesting to have some new, slightly different toys to play with instead, even if those toys don't fundamentally change the way the region plays. On a side note, I also heavily disagree with the idea that staple cards are supposed to be boring. If the cards your game revolves around aren't interesting, something is wrong. For this reason changing the staples up a bit from time to time is a very healthy thing to do.

Argument 3:

While it is again debatable whether the rotation we got succeeded in getting underpowered champions to see play (in large part because the Darkin expansion champions mostly didn't lose anything), claiming that rotation is fundamentally incapable of doing so is very disingenuous. It is also too early to definitively call rotation a complete failure on this point. Rotation will not magically make every underpowered champion see play. Rotation will lower the power level of the weaker decks that are considered "good" by removing some of the good cards, which will then let the higher end of cards previously considered "bad" take their place.

Argument 4:

You are right in pointing out that, as long as an Eternal style mode exists, the problem of an ever increasing card pool with more and more complex is unavoidable. For this reason, Eternal style formats almost inevitably get less attention from devs than that Standard style formats, and that sucks for all the players whose favorite cards or play styles cannot be found in standard. By introducing rotation, Riot are saying that, even with their full attention, Eternal would eventually get out of hand, and become impossible to balance properly and the game will suffer as a result. Their best bet is to instead create a more limited format that they can keep in a much better state, but of course this comes at a cost. Rotation is, in Riots estimation, the lesser of two evils.

There are several aspects of the rotation as it was implemented that feel bad, and maybe will turn out to be bad. Champions cards are very dear to players hearts, partially because of how central they are to deck strategies, partially because champions are characters that many players already knew and loved for years from League. Having no ranked ladder to play them on sucks. The communication around rotation was pretty bad, which definitely didn't help and the card set we had pre-rotation was in a state that, in my opinion, made a "perfect" rotation next to impossible, due region dependence on champions, the ways champions in certain regions did, and did not fit together - it's complicated, and maybe deserves a post of its own.

The point being: there are plenty of things to criticize about the way rotation was implemented. I do however believe that the reasons behind implementing are generally sound, and calling them failures across the board less than a week after rotation is not the way to go about doing so. End Wall-of-Text

You are right in pointing out that, as long as an Eternal style mode exists, the problem of an ever increasing card pool with more and more complex is unavoidable.

One bonus factor here: eternal formats tend to be more stable when new cards aren't actively trying to disrupt them.

One reason rotation can help reduce power creep is because you can print cards that can impact the standard metagame without having to be much more powerful than the eternal decks. The modern and legacy formats of MTG used to change very slowly for this reason, with people feeling confident that their decks would be viable for a very long time with minimal changes needed.

When WOTC decided they wanted to print cards for these formats they did it largely by bypassing Standard entirely with Modern Horizons and similar. Modern Horizons 2 massively disrupted many formats. It's still kind of wild to me that Tarmogoyf often struggles to find a deck slot these days.

This means that while the eternal card pool does grow, the pool is far more manageable than it would be otherwise. The new cards make waves in standard, but in eternal it's okay if they only make ripples.

about 1 year ago - /u/Dan_Felder - Direct link

Originally posted by UNOvven

Yes, and were comparing things to 9 years ago. With magic and YGO you didnr compare from the launch to a certain point, but now to a certain point back, its a bit odd to have two separate standards for how to compare. Hence why here were comparing from now to 9 years ago for both. Its a better comparison in general, since we want current powercreep. And because ygo had early installment weirdness.

Actually your timeline here is wrong, ygo launched in 1999. And Hearthstone launched in 2014. So it'd be actually ygo from 1999 compared to 2006, which is actually closer than HS in that timeframe too.

Quite bluntly, by not being blind. A good way to measure powercreep is to look at a decks lifespan. How long can a deck find success? In YGO, thats a respectable 5 years. In hearthstone its 1. Sometimes, rarely, 2. Never more than that. In hearthstone power grows much faster, so decks become irrelevant much faster. Honestly its a tiny bit worrying that a dev isn't aware that Hearthstones powercreep is the most severe out there.

It matters because it dispels the notion that rotation is a fix to powercreep, or that a lack of rotation causes powercreep. If of the only 4 card games in existence with rotation, 2 are topping the "worst powercreep" charts, far ahead of even ygo, well, thats bad news for that claim. And when those two are the ones whose rotation is closest to Lots, that also makes me worry for the games future.

I do have to ask though, just before you leave. Why do you push back so hard against people informing you about YGO, since you clearly haven't played it for at minimum 5 years? Telling people they're wrong about something they're much more familiar with feels unproductive.

Actually your timeline here is wrong, ygo launched in 1999. And Hearthstone launched in 2014.

I'll just respond to this: Yugioh, the Legend of Blue-Eyes, the first yugioh set - launched on March 8, 2002, in North America. I'm comparing North America releases of the 2002 north american meta to the north america meta 9 years later. 2002 + 9 = 2011. This is because the TCG (international version of the game) and OCG (original cardgame) are different games with different timeframes for release.

The OCG launched in 1999 in japan. The OCG and TCG in yugioh are different metas, and cannot be directly compared. Cards in the OCG are not simultaneously legal in the TCG. Here's an article explaining the differences.

Relevant excerpt:

One of the biggest differences for the game itself is that cards are released at different times in each ecosystem. OCG releases are typically the first printings for new cards and take time to make their way over to the TCG regions.

This isn’t always the case, but sometimes, cards will be exclusive to the OCG or released as TCG exclusives and take years to make their way to the other format.

This also includes some cards receiving an erratum in the OCG that might not hit the TCG despite being potentially impactful for the meta.

Meanwhile Hearthstone launched on March 11 2014. 2014 + 9 = 2023.

I do have to ask though, just before you leave. Why do you push back so hard against people informing you about YGO, since you clearly haven't played it for at minimum 5 years? Telling people they're wrong about something they're much more familiar with feels unproductive.

*points up*

The whole conversation has been like this. You're looking for gotchas in specific details, and it wastes time. That's why it's been unproductive.

Goodnight.

about 1 year ago - /u/Dan_Felder - Direct link

Originally posted by gshshsnhjmry

Most players are well aware of the OCG/TCG split, this does not come off well

Exactly, which is why I didn’t think I needed to specify it originally. :)

I compared the TCG release date and TCG meta 9 years later. I didn’t think it needed to be specified that I was talking about the TCG. It was only after he used the OCG date to claim I was wrong about the launch date that I explained it.

It’s pretty clear there’s going to be no end to that discussion though. I didn’t set out to discuss the yugioh meta over the decades in detail, much less pivot to hearthstone. If he wants to then try and claim that only the OCG launch date counts and people should be comparing 2008 Gladiator Beasts, lightsworn, dark armed dragon, and more to summoned skull beat down - that’s fine too. I’d say the power increase in the top decks in yugioh is still way higher than hearthstone’s current decks vs their launch decks. I’m genuinely not sure how anyone could argue otherwise.

I also don’t think that’s a bad thing, I had a lot more fun with gladiator beasts, lightsworn, and d.a.d. than I did with summoned skull beatdown. I had a lot more fun with synchro summoning than summoned skill beatdown too.

about 1 year ago - /u/Dan_Felder - Direct link

Originally posted by gshshsnhjmry

I think the main point of contention here is the "not sure how anyone could argue otherwise" bit

It's a fairly common pattern in conversations about YGO that you run into this kind of dismissiveness(?, not sure how to properly phrase this) when people want to discuss the game in more depth. Too often the perspective of someone deep in the dueling trenches gets negated by someone's passing vibe check. It gets frustrating after a while, and it's especially frustrating coming from someone who's more than just some random Reddit commenter

That’s fair. With just the text minus any tone it probably comes off as very dismissive. What I meant is that I genuinely don’t know, not that it’s impossible to have a different opinion. This makes me curious, because it seems obvious to me that the 2008 meta in yugioh is far stronger than the 2002 tcg meta. I don’t know enough about the ocg meta to have an informed opinion on it separately, which is why I’m not commenting on it.

It might help to know one reason yugioh is top of mind for me is because I’ve been playing it a lot lately and encouraging various game designers on various teams to study the metas throughout time, since I think the game does some extremely creative things. I think the way they’ve evolved their meta and play patterns over time so the various eras play incredibly differently from each other is cool. It’s also very impressive how they’ve managed to keep finding new design space despite huge challenges - they don’t have regions or mana costs to rely on for balance. They also try to support the archetypes popularized by the anime, which is another big challenge. People want to play with Dark Magician but it’s an incredibly weak card on its own - which is a challenge few other games have to deal with. The way they’ve built archetypes around iconic monsters like dark magician, blue eyes, red eyes, and more to enable the duelist fantasies is very interesting and few other games have done something similar in the same way.

I play and enjoy a ton of different card games, and each has its own positives.

about 1 year ago - /u/Dan_Felder - Direct link

Originally posted by gshshsnhjmry

Hell yea brother

IMO non-MTG CGs are criminally understudied from a design perspective. It's crazy that YGO and Pokemon never got the same kind of analysis MTG has despite being almost as old. I guess MTG has uniquely academic roots but it feels like there's just so much untapped potential

Love how diverse this new wave of card games being released is as well, a lot to look forward to

IMO non-MTG CGs are criminally understudied from a design perspective.

Absolutely! It shocks me how even many dedicates turn-based strategy designers or cardgame designers have played only a very narrow selection of MTG-inspired games. I've got a big pile of on my desk of 2-3 beginner-friendly decks from various cardgames (if collectible) I introduce people to when I get time.

Currently on the desk (only 2-4 decks for each, and changes regularly):

- Poke'mon TCG (league battle decks for context, it's always funny to watch people react to professor's research or Marnie for the first time).

- Flesh and Blood

- Lord of the Rings, the LCG

- Radlands

- Netrunner the LCG

- Solforge Fusion

- Innovation

- Dragonball Z TCG

- Star Wars: Destiny

- Transformers TCG (technically it's in a drawer, but optimus prime battlefield legend is on top)

There's so much design space within cardgames, I'm really excited more people are exploring it. Thankfully, Riot gives us pretty big desks. :)

Any suggestions on other cardgames I should rotate into the current pile when it's time for the next batch? We also have a big shelf of various cardgames and boardgames in our tabletop area, these are just the ones I brought in myself.