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feel like this is the beginning of the end
feel like this is the beginning of the end
In what way? The blog itself is really only talking about the types of discussion we're having internally.
I have no clue if a council is the right way to go about this. It's quite clear now that quite a large portion of the playerbase does not like certain pvp-updates. I think a large part of that is due to pvp, in it's current form, feels a lot like a pker versus a non-pker. A council would simply circumvent a large part of the community to push through updates which didn't reach the threshhold. It's also trying to cure the symptons rather than the problem which in my opinion is that a lot of people have a reason to vote no to these kind of updates.
The solution is to remove unnecessary content from the wilderness and make the wilderness fun and viable for pkers trying to kill other pkers. There is zero fun for the non-pker who is targetted because he will always be at a disadvantage.
If I would be doing prayer, catching chins or killing a boss I do not like to be pked or fought. Also because I'm actively engaging in that certain activity I have a disadvantage fighting back due to having less supplies. Add on top of that the chances to get skull-tricked or "lured" into multi (if you're not in multi already) and clanbanged without anything you can do to prevent that.
This causes frustration for non-pkers and friction between pkers and non-pkers. People are not going to vote against their own best wishes. Giving an incentive for pkers to seek out and fight other players with the same intent and who are ready to battle will ease this friction and increases the chances of pkers getting what they want.
Note: This is all my opinion and I may be totally wrong. Please think for yourself if you agree or not.
What if the council is a general player council, with a remit to discuss things like PvP, but is comprised of players from all backgrounds?
It could work, but that is so many voices. You are going to have to parse everyone's opinions. And when you make your decision, some group is always going to be unhappy.
For sure. It's hard to know where to begin. Fortunately we've got valuable contacts at other studios who do use player councils, so we're keen to learn from them.
I feel like the idea is good, coming from someone who doesn't pvp.
Although I would like to point out one thing. I think (and someone can tell me if I'm wrong) that the reason LMS rewards failed the poll was because the entire osrs community in general thought they were just bad rewards. To be fair, you can't expect any game-changing rewards from a game that costs nothing.
Anyways, I'd love to see a barrows-style minigame in deep wildy, still fully pvp, designed to obtain those wildy weapons. Would be a great system I think.
I've heard from several people that we could improve on the LMS rewards that were offered. Even though the ideas of voter-limited polls or a PvP council are only discussion points for now, something we can do right away is work closer with the community on the designs of PvP rewards to make sure they're given the best possible chance to pass in a standard poll.
Any chance deadman mode will ever be brought back? I feel like that's all pvpers had left and now its gone. Even short seasons, or even weekend DMM seasons would be a lot of fun.
There's no news on Deadman yet, that's in the remit of our new Head of esports. Deadman was paused because it wasn't working for a number of reasons. What Mod Rogue is doing is taking a proper comprehensive look at how a competitive strategy for 2020 and beyond would look, rather than bungling from season to season like we were beforehand.
I am curious what you consider interacting with content. Hard clues and up on 50% of clues require you to go to wildy. If ironman wants a dpick they have to go to wildy. Is that what you would consider the criteria? Or is it strictly pvp?
In the example we gave of PvP content being restricted to PvP and BH worlds, you would be able to go to Wilderness to do your clues on other worlds to avoid any interaction with it.
Otherwise in general, we would say going into the Wilderness counts as being affected if you're killed with a new PvP weapon, for example.
Responding to the question of where to draw the line:
I preface this by saying I am strictly anti-pvp.
For me the line would be if the content effects any non-pvp content at all (such as tradable items/flow of money through the game as stated in the post) needs to be an open poll. Anything that is completely, 100% contained within the PvP community would be a-okay with me to just ask PvPers.
Edit: Also, I'd add that if the change affects the wilderness in normal worlds, even if the change is PvP only, it should be polled to everyone. PvMers and skillers have to use the wildy for some of the content, so it's not fair to them to just ask the PvPers. This post was more for the idea that it would only be on PvP worlds.
Can you elaborate on why you wouldn’t want them to be tradeable?
This sounds like an oligarchy with extra steps. I'm definitely against the player council. I'd be more on board with Jagex changing how polling for PvP specific content works.
Thanks for the feedback. How do you feel about the example whereby content could be limited to PvP and BH worlds only, but would still be tradeable?
honestly i dont see a solution that pleases everyone, good luck this is gonna be a cesspool.
We don’t either - but we’d like to find the best possible solution that best serves the most players.
The biggest issue with making things only able to be voted on by pvpers is that you don’t have to be a pvper to face interaction with this content. Clue scrolls, slayer, and bossing all have content in the wildy. You don’t have to pvp to go for any of these things so you’d still be forced into interacting with the content. The only way that would be ok is if the wildy was a pvp only area. No skilling. No bossing. Nothing but pvp and that will never be the case.
In the example we give in the post, a player going to do a scroll, Wildy Slayer or GWD, could choose to avoid interacting with the content by not going on a PvP or BH world.
The Player base wont stand for disenfranchisement, the game is built on the polling system and everyone gets their say on any update that could effect the game as a whole. The vast majority of PVP proposals effect the game as a whole and everyone must have their say when they do.
The the idea of PVP weapons for only BH/pvp worlds is certainly interesting, but i've not even noticed unity among pkers for their introduction.
A council for that helps provide insight and balance before something is polled is interesting, so long as they arent total echo chambers, there has often been issues balancing content out of the gate for new releases, and something like the recent further LMS rewards poll really needed revisions and improvements given the manner in which it was put together and put to a poll hastily. If such a council worked out the idea could be extended to other ares of the game to refine update ideas and help balance and improve content launches. Such councils should never, ever had a final say on something being introduced, they should advise and improve.
Thanks for this feedback!
I think rather than taking away a voice from PvMers it's more important to incentivise PvPers to target other PvPers. As it currently stands there doesn't seem to be a lot of reasons for a PvPer to hunt another PvPer when they could just get free kills on people PvMing in the wilderness
I agree. Hopefully the recent focus on mini games where pkers fight each other (LMS and BH) will help.
It would depend on the item itself, really. Something like a new pvp potion could devalue currently existing potions (this applies to any new consumables). A new weapon/armour that only exists for PvP could similarly devalue current weapons /armourthat PvPers commonly purchase.
So the new item would have to be either incredibly well balanced and distanced from current content to not effect it, or have an utterly unique effect/mechanic that is completely different from existing items, so that the items don't tread on each others' toes.
I know that devaluation is really not a big deal, but it still does effect things, and so the people it may effect should have a say.
I'm aware this is a rather extreme opinion of the whole topic, so take it with a grain of salt.
Thanks - so would you be concerned with the PvP weapons offered for BH? Given the degrading mechanic, unique tier (78) and being extremely rare, they should have a minimal effect on other items. They’d be for special use rather than everyday PvP also.
Thats fair, for sure. If pvp poll only content is limited to those worlds im all for it. I vote in favour of most pvp polls already. My biggest concern is the slippery slope. For now the content of these polls is limited solely to pvp/bh worlds but will that always be the case? If so, great. If that can’t be guaranteed I’d have to be opposed.
Reasonable. We’re committed to our philosophy of letting players vote on content that affects them. It’s just a question of defining that separation by working out things like the example of tradeable items we mention.
we gotta restrict pvm updates so that only pvmers vote on it and we should get a pvm council to design stuff
high level content aimed at people with total level over 2k should only be able to be voted on by people with people over 2k total and we should have hlf for osrs
i get that you guys are trying to work on solutions, i really get it and appreciate the effort, but you see how this is silly
why do we gotta worry about spite vote from one particular group? do you not think that other people spite vote? do you think that people not just genuinely think something may or may not be good for the game?
maybe we could detail pvp blogs some more so ppl out of the loop could have some more info. but otherwise why do we need to have a special council for pvp?
We don’t have any evidence to support spite voting against other sub communities. I don’t think your examples work here because PvMers aren’t a minority group of voters. And the higher level players tend to want fewer changes to the game - although hopefully they enjoy the content we do make for them like raids.
I would agree that extra context for clarity helps poll questions.
We don’t necessarily need a council, but it would at least help ensure the designs of PvP content are high quality before they are offered in polls.
I'm assuming you're talking about the ancient warriors' weapons from this post: https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/bounty-hunter-rewards-poll-blog?oldschool=1.
I did add an edit to my original post that pretty much addresses it a little before you responded here, sorry. To sum up, since it works against non-PvP players such as skillers in the wilderness (from my understanding), I would say it should be polled to everyone. I would say I'd personally vote no due to them being an even more efficient way to kill non-PvPers, even with the rarity, curse, and degrading mechanic.
Correct me if any of my info is off.
Edit: I also can't find info on if they would be tradeable or not.
Yeah, those are the weapons. The plan is to have them be tradeable.
What about in the example given in the post whereby they'd only work on PvP worlds or Bounty Hunter worlds (in the wilderness only)? That was skillers would have the option to be totally unaffected if they wish.
if the job of the council is to assist quality control for pvp content before offering it in the polls i'm all for it, i mustve misread it
and yeah offering extra context for ppl would definitely help ie looting bag in pvp worlds, spec-tab, spec transfer, running into safe zone, a little bit of context can rly help ppl understand why something is being offered
gl
Thanks!
Instead of trying to lure pvmers to the wildy, give incentive for pvpers or current pvmers to fight each other/back.
If you try to do any pvm in the wildy and you see a pker your only option is literally to run away unless you are decent enough at pvp to fight back. Even then, skull tricking is common enough that most players won’t even try to fight back. Fix skull tricking and people will be more willing to fight back knowing they can have advantage over the pker. Meanwhile, Jagex needs to also add incentive for pvpers to fight each other instead of just pvmers.
In theory, the incentive is already there - not dying and keeping your stuff. Maybe even getting some stuff from the PKer. In practice, this isn't what happens in the game when PvMers go to the Wilderness. Rather than equip themselves to put up a good fight, they take the minimal risk and try to escape in the event of being attacked, hence the predator/prey situation.
I'd agree that a focus on PKers fighting eachother is healthier for PvP than simply introducing more PvM content in the wilderness. The latter only breeds more animosity and results in a worse experience for both parties. Hopefully we can bring about the former with things like the LMS rework we recently did and the upcoming Bounty Hunter one.
I completely understand it's spiteful of me, and a low thing to do, but I absolutely spite vote-no to every PVP poll because of how much I hate PKers, and pvp in this game in general. PKers are nothing to me but my enemies, and the less they receive the better.
It's a bad stance I know, but I have nothing but vitriol. I wish they could do something about the animosity between the people who want to pk and the people that don't, but instead there's a thousand ways they try to get pvm/pve players out into the wilderness just to...ruin their experience and give pkers targets.
It seems like this animosity is baked into the game design for the last several years, not sure it can be reversed.
I appreciate the honesty. Maybe a focus on turning PvP into PKers fighting each other rather than hunting PvMers will help with this.
I'm a little concerned about the idea of just dismissing pvm votes. I voted nay to a lot of the LMS rewards not because it was PVP, but because I didn't like them. It concerns me we'll see a specific group of players empowered over others.
Even in the event that the impact of those rewards are limited to PvP? We'd continue polling things like LMS rewards which affect the whole game. But in the post we pitch the idea of limiting items to use on PvP worlds and BH worlds only. Would that lessen your concerns?
Even if you bring equipment to anti-PK you are at a massive disadvantage against the Pker.
You now have PVM/Skilling+PVP gear in your inventory, PVM/Skilling supplies and any loot you have obtained, Versus a fully supplied PKer.
Your only chance is a lucky spec, and if it doesn't come off the only thing you can genuinely do is run.
Yeah, I agree that's a fundamental problem with putting PvM content in the Wilderness. I'd prefer we focus on PKers fighting each other instead.
I think the council sounds extremely questionable integrity wise. I'm not opposed to the idea of items that only work on pvp/bh worlds, but how would you limit who can vote? By bh kills? By pvp world kills?
That’s the question. What do you think it the best way to select eligible voters in the scenario?
It would absolutely lessen my concerns. In fact, it would basically dispel them entirely. I'm a little concerned about it creating confusion among new players, but that sounds like a fun problem for Jagex.
Just... Please don't dismiss the latest LMS poll for whiny pvmers. I voted nay to a lot of the rewards because I didn't like what they were or felt them very "out there".
Thanks for the feedback. There’s quite a few people indicating that the design/quality of the rewards was the main issue in the LMS poll.
As others have pointed out, stop trying to treat the symptoms and, instead, tackle the actual root of the problem.
What you shouldn’t be asking: “how can we make it easier for PvP updates to pass polls?”
What you should be asking: “how can we fix the fundamental design of PvP so that people won’t automatically associate it with negative thoughts, emotions, and experiences?”
The biggest issue is that PvP is heavily focused on hunting players who have no actual interest in PvP. If you move all of the PvM content out of the wilderness, then I guarantee you that a lot of the PvMers wouldn’t have such a negative attitude and opinion towards PvP in general.
TLDR; Don’t coerce PvMers into the wildy just so that PvPers can have ample opportunity for easy prey. Instead, incentivize PvPers to fight other PvPers. Make it more rewarding to kill a PvPer than it would be to kill a non-PvPer.
Thanks for that feedback - it’s a very common theme in this thread and I’ll make sure to take note.