Original Post — Direct link

It's strange how divided the community is on Aquarian. I think a lot of it comes from what map settings people generally play on.

There are a lot of people who only play tiny/small/1v1 maps, and a lot of people who play only single player perfection. There are also people who like larger maps and more variety. These people all experience the game very differently, such that they can feel incredulous about the other groups' opinions. I personally play every map setting and don't really discriminate on what pops up when I feel like starting a game.

Archers suck! Says the person who never plays small maps. Cymanti is OP! Says the person who only plays tiny/small 1v1 drylands. And, Aquarian is the worst tribe in the game! Says the person who never plays huge+ 1v1 on drylands and archipelago.

Cymanti on tiny drylands is very strong, and to newer or lower ELO players can feel unbeatable. But they are beatable. Aquarian on 1v1 massive drylands is not beatable. Not if your opponent is competent. They are much better than Cymanti on tiny drylands. They are OP to the point of breaking the game. You can have map control, a sizeable economy advantage, and a respectable army, but by the time you are pushing them into a corner they have a swarm of tridentions and you lose. I challenge anyone here to post a replay of you beating Aquarian on 1v1 massive drylands.

Now, you may say, who cares? Who plays massive 1v1 drylands or archipelago? Well, I don't entirely disagree, even though I like massive drylands with any number of players. But they are in the game, and no strategy game should have a map setting that can't realistically be won against a particular species/tribe/race/whatever.

The problem with Aquarian is that they are objectively terrible (decent on arch), until the moment they are completely and utterly unstoppable, and on some map settings they are guaranteed to get there. This concept is an interesting thought experiment, but in practice it is not a good design. The current beta form of Aquarian is not a good end point either and could certainly be done better, but we know that a rework is coming eventually. I know this is not a popular opinion, but I personally believe that nerfing them like this until the rework is better than leaving them how they were from a game design perspective.

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about 1 year ago - /u/Zoythrus - Direct link

Originally posted by ChickenChimneyChanga

I'm saying that if a game variant exists where winning is a forgone conclusion for a particular tribe/class/race in any game, there is a broken game mechanic that should be fixed or that variant should be removed. And that (pre-nerf) a competent (or at least similarly skilled) Aquarian player cannot be beaten on 1v1 massive drylands, and maybe Archipelago although I am less certain there. Midjiwan isn't going to remove massive drylands or archipelago, so changing Aquarian is the only other option. I would LOVE to hear u/Zoythrus comment on their logic for nerfing them, but I wager this is a big reason for it.

You have it a little backwards with them though. Aquarian is not very good on water world or continents. They are much, much better on drylands because of roads. They are also very good on archipelago because they can cross land and water, but waterworld/continents don't have the maze of shallow/deep water to screw with other tribes' navigation. Tridentions aren't great on open water against battleships.

I have a steam account but mostly play mobile, my username is the same as my Reddit name. Are you sure you want to play a massive 1v1 on drylands though? I am 1702 ELO btw

Well, as we said in the blog post, "nerfing" isn't the right word for what we did to the Specials.

"Nerfing" implies that we made negative changes for the sake of balance. But, these changes were to get them in line with the update, not to explicitly "nerf them".

Also, we'd like Aquarion to be better on water than on land. I mean, they're fish people, so it makes sense. Any bonuses on Drylands or whatever is a fluke and not in line with our wants.

about 1 year ago - /u/Zoythrus - Direct link

Originally posted by ChickenChimneyChanga

Interesting, so this specifically didn't play into the decision?

It makes a lot of sense that the fish people should be better on water than land, so I really like that y'all are going that direction. I've not encountered them in the beta yet to fully understand how they interact with the new navy.

The changes to Aquarion in this beta were because of 2 reasons:

  1. To get them in line with the new mechanics and philosophy around naval

  2. To "put them on track" as a water-focused tribe.

We're going to properly deep dive into them with a rework (just like the others), but this was a first step to get them "ready" for it.