about 1 year ago - V453000 - Direct link

Hello,
Several FFFs ago we have shown you what a Space platform can look like (FFF-373), today we would like to explain how they work in a bit more detail.


What are Space platforms?

Space platforms are little (or not) flying factories that act as the means of transportation between planets, both for items and players.

Birth of a platform

You start by launching an item called "Space platform starter pack" into space. The item is inserted into the rocket silo in a similar way to the satellite.


This rocket is carrying a space platform starter pack, as you can tell from looking at the alt-mode overlay.

Space platform hub

The initial platform has only one structure - the space platform hub. The hub is a 1-per-platform central entity which stores items for both construction and logistics, has logistic requests, and a train-like schedule where planets act as stops.
If the hub is destroyed, the entire platform is lost.


Space platform hub, the centerpiece of every space platform.
Many of you could tell earlier that the graphics of the space platform hub are a concept art placeholder, while the real version is being worked on.

The inventory of the space platform hub is limited, but so called cargo bays can be constructed next to the hub to increase the capacity.

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The graphics aren't yet finished, but you can already see how the hub and cargo bays will visually attach.
Jaroslaw's sanity is now somewhere deep in these pixels, if you find it please send it back.

Initially, we were trying a different system, where the cargo bays would be separated entities, and you would have to shuffle things around, but it was just a non-fun bookkeeping activity, so we just went with one big central inventory.

How do things get to Space platforms?

The next part was clear and unchanged form the beginning: Rockets are used to bring items to platforms, and this part is the main price of delivering items into space or other planets.
But the rest went through an evolution.

The original plan was, that it would be part of the logistic challenge to transport and insert all the required items directly into the rocket silo. Everything in the silo would be available to the "orbital logistic system", which pulls required items from available rocket silos.

The problem was, that the actual gameplay produced by this system proved to be incredibly annoying very quickly. The reason is, that you need many different items in small quantities to build all the platform mini-factory and the only reasonable solution to do that was weird.
You had to filter the inventory slots in the silo, so each of the items would have a dedicated space, and then to bring every individual item to the silo.


Configuring this wasn't fun. On top of that, all the items had to be backed-up in the silo AND the chests.

We needed a way out, so we added 3 semi-separated features to fix this pain:

  1. The rocket silo is directly connected to the logistic network and works as a requester chest.
  2. The rocket silo can be configured (a checkbox), to automatically request things needed by the platform above from the local logistic network. Note that this is only activated when the items are already present in the network in the needed quantities.
  3. When you are placing ghosts on the space platform, the space platform can be set to automatically request these items from the surface of the local planet

With these 3 things combined, you can just build ghosts on the platform, and everything is done automatically, assuming you have the items already available in your logistic network.
The important part is that you can still ignore the logistic network, and stockpile the silos manually, which can be very practical in special situations, or basically required in some of the yet-undisclosed Space Age content, but it is an exception.

Asteroids as a resource

In space you encounter asteroids which are both a resource and a hazard.
They come in various sizes, asteroid chunks are the tiniest and don't do any damage to the platform when they hit it. Chunks can also be caught by the mechanical tentacles of asteroid collectors to be processed into items.

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There are three general asteroid types:

  • Metallic asteroids for iron ore used to produce gun turret ammunition and thruster oxidiser.
  • Carbonic asteroids for carbon which is a new resource used on the platform to produce thruster fuel.
  • Oxide asteroids for ice which is melted into water, then used to produce thruster fuel and oxidiser.

A new machine called a crusher is used to process the asteroids. Later on, more resource types can be obtained from asteroids using advanced crushing recipes.

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It can happen that the platform collects too many asteroids or some recipe byproducts just accumulate too much. Here's one simple feature that we love: You can dump items overboard with inserters.

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In the past we've had multiple versions of ways how to trash items from platforms, including having a special storage entity which was able to do that. It all got so complicated that in the end we just went with this super simple solution.

Space science - in space

What if we produced space science packs on the space platform instead of by just sending satellites into space? Sounds cool on first sight because it fleshes out the space science pack into something more than just the imaginary "satellites sent us research data from space", but there are even better reasons for it.

In our initial version of space platforms, you would unlock all of their components immediately after the rocket silo.
With that you could go explore planets. This sounds great until you realize that the player isn't quite getting anything useful out of any of this until they have successfully brought science packs back from another planet.

This means, that you had to:

  1. Make the rocket silo and many rockets.
  2. Build the space platform.
  3. Travel to the other planet.
  4. Solve the challenges of the planet and automate science pack and rocket production there.

That is quite a lot of a big steps to do and it reminds us a similar pacing problem we already had in the past with the oil processing changes covered in the FFF-304 and FFF-305.

So we tried to break this into smaller manageable sub-parts which yield some usefulness/reward on their own. This is helped by effectively having two tiers of space science packs.

Satellites launched into space are still used to obtain the first space science packs, but you only get 10 space science packs for a satellite. You can spend these on a few technologies which cost in the range of 10-30 space science packs each.
Namely, this is where you can unlock tier 2 modules, kovarex enrichment process, space platforms, asteroid collectors, and a new space science pack recipe.

The next step is to construct a basic platform capable of collecting and crushing asteroids.
This platform can combine crushed asteroids with imported uranium from Nauvis to produce science packs in much higher quantities.
With 1 rocket load of enriched uranium you can produce 1000 space science packs in space which makes it 100+ times more efficient than sending satellites into space.
This is effectively splitting the space science technologies in two distinct tiers.

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Platform producing space science and putting it into the platform hub from where it will be sent to the surface.

Past this point, technologies return back to costing hundreds/thousands of research points each, normal infinite technologies become affordable so you can finally get more robot speed upgrades, weapon damage upgrades, or unlock the atomic bomb.

This progression is also very useful so the player first gets to grasp the basics of asteroid processing in a safe environment before they need to build a platform which dares to travel away from Nauvis.

Moving space platforms

Space platforms can either be stopped in orbit, or moving between two orbits.
For movement, the platform has some weight based on its size (number of tiles), which is attempted to be moved by the force of the thrusters. This means the bigger the platform, the more thrusters it needs to move fast.
In order to move, the thruster needs to be supplied with fuel and oxidiser, which can be obtained from asteroid resources.

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Our platform can now fly, but that isn't without risk...

Asteroids as a threat

The platform must be equipped with defensive turrets because after departing from Nauvis orbit larger asteroids appear. If unchecked, these can heavily damage and eventually completely destroy the platform. On destruction, the bigger asteroids split into multiple smaller ones, eventually turning into the harmless chunks.

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Building rules

Everything on Space platforms is done via the remote view (no coincidence it was the topic of the last FFF).

Some entities can't be constructed on platforms at all. For example:

  • Robots so the platform remains a belt logistic puzzle.
  • Chests to prevent excessive buffering.
  • Vehicles including trains and spidertrons for various reasons.
  • Burner entities for a bit of realism as there's no atmosphere in space.

Space platforms cannot have holes in tiles, and their surface must be contiguous. If a tile that bridges two sections is destroyed, the section without connection to the hub is destroyed as well.

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Power on space platforms

Power is automatically distributed by space platform tiles so you don't need to build electric poles or substations on the platform, allowing for some even denser belt designs.

The platform gets power primarily from solar panels, but power is still rather limited on the platform, as every solar panels adds to the size of the platform which increases its weight, slows it down.
This means efficiency modules are now much more useful than before.
Solar panel output is generally greater in space than on planets, but most planets are further away from the star than Nauvis, and eventually we get to travel to really distant places where solar panels are almost useless. This leaves room for nuclear power being completely viable to be used on space platforms, though it requires a significant amount of water/ice to be gathered from asteroids.

Quality implications

Quality of entities is extremely influential on the platform since its effects basically multiply against each other.

  • Higher quality chemical plants produce fuel faster while consuming the same amount of power.
  • Higher quality solar panels means you need to use less space so the thrusters have an easier time moving the platform.
  • Higher quality asteroid collectors have more arms for catching asteroid chunks.
  • Higher quality furnaces and assembling machines can craft ammo faster.
  • Higher quality gun turrets have increased range, so they get more time to shoot the asteroids before they would hit the platform.
  • In general, higher quality entities have more health, so the platform can tank more hits if an asteroid slips through.

Long story short, if you have a few higher quality items, it might make a lot of sense to use them on the platform.

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This is what a platform with legendary components could look like.


The process

The platforms you can see here today achieve quite accurately what kovarex's initial idea was, however we have spent a lot of time finding the right path to get there. The rocket logistics and space platform mechanics were changed very significantly many times. We weren't afraid to rework systems related to the platform in order to make the experience of building them as good as we can imagine.

Apart from the technical mechanics, we've created interesting recipes which don't get too complicated. At the start we had a rough idea of what we want to achieve (somehow craft ammo and something for thrusters), and Earendel has laid out a creative set of recipes. Since then I (V453000) have done a lot of balancing passes and tweaks and we've got something quite solid now.

As you're probably already used to by now, the graphics you can see in this post have taken a lot of effort to make. Though this time it exceeded the trend by quite a bit, and the space platform has been a real team effort more than anything before it.

From the surface of the space platform tiles and decoratives done by Lucas; Space platform transitions, thrusters, crushers and the hub/cargo bays done by Jaroslaw; Asteroid collectors and starfield shader done by Jerzy; to the asteroids done by Fearghall; with all the concept art from Earendel; and oversight from Albert with V453000; we can safely say close to everybody from the GFX department has been involved, and pretty much every one of these tasks has tested our sanity.


Conclusion

It is an undeniable fact that the factory must grow, always. But sometimes it just transcends to the point where it seems like nothing matters anymore and all of the challenges have been trivialized. Survival, space constraints, items feeling like they have any value, and so on.

With the rules of how space platforms are built, we can enjoy these feelings of puzzles to be solved for quite a bit further. While building a platform can be easy by sending more platform tiles to space and giving yourself more room to build, it is always motivating to try to keep the platform compact so it can fly as fast as possible.

Space platforms can specialize in different tasks, so it can be motivating to optimize them for different design goals. You can aim to make a huge platform that can load thousands of items, or a small platform with capacity sacrificed for speed. Would you like a minimal platform so you could get to that first planet as soon as possible, or do you perhaps fancy a gigantic platform that can craft its own components mid-flight? There are quite a few more things to try, but more about that some other day...

It's obvious to compare Space Age's space platforms to Space Exploration's spaceships. While they're both chunks of metal traversing space, their gameplay is very different. Thanks to the asteroid processing, space platforms can operate completely independently without the need to refuel, and it also automatically means they are little (or gigantic) space factories, where space really matters. Due to modding API limitations, SE's spaceships get rather complicated to automate with combinators and so on, in contrast space platforms automatic scheduling is literally as simple as automating trains.

All in all, creating your first automated space platform should be quite easy, but there is a lot of room for making something really big and complex too.


As always, thank you for reading and let us know what you think on the usual platforms.

about 1 year ago - /u/V453000 - Direct link

Originally posted by Legendendaer

There is something weird about just plopping down ghosts on the platform and those ghosts appearing out of thin air (yes, yes. I know these items are in the hub, but still)

Would it be possible to introduce a space power armor with rockets to move in space? Or maybe rocket powered bots?

Secondly, the stars moving in the background of the space platform when it's moving shouldnt really happen... Maybe I'm pedantic, but I find it quite annoying/distracting/immersion breaking...

Also, should the space platform slow down at all when the thrusters are idle? I mean, there is not really a counterforce present which would slow the platform down...

Oh yes sh*t I forgot to include a preview of the construction visualization, there will be something cool! :) some other fff

about 1 year ago - /u/V453000 - Direct link

Originally posted by clif08

I hope next time they're going to tell us about the rockets. I was imagining SE 500-slots rockets when I read about the auto-request feature, and I really don't think SE-style rockets would work here. So I would imagine, Space Age rockets are probably small, with maybe just a handful of inventory slots?

And that leads to even bigger question: how do you send things back to the planet? If the space hub has one huge inventory, how do you choose which items you will send down?

Had to leave some things for another friday, this was already big, sorry! :)

about 1 year ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by [deleted]

I know people don't love to see criticisms about our favorite game, but I wish the audio team got as many resources as the graphics team. The graphics are incredible. The gameplay is incredible. The audio, well, the audio seems to be the red headed step child.

It's not really noticeable on little PC speakers but if you play this game on a quality sound system the audio comes up a little short.

Audio got a lot of love as well. Including my personal longest wanted feature (you can try to guess what it is)It will be covered later in FFFs.

about 1 year ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by usernamedottxt

Why no holes in the spaceship? Is it just to force size/weight to be linear?

Game-design reasons.
If you could build holes, you can just make sparse (non compact) setup, with the tiles only on needed places.
With the holes being disabled, you are more likely to build compact platform area, which you need to compactly fill with machinery.

about 1 year ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by hanuke

You'd still be able to place an underground belt that goes between the two prongs of a C-shaped platform

No you can't. I twouldn't make any sense.

about 1 year ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by tripleomega

This makes me wonder about many things:

- If there are no robots and players can't walk on the platform how are things getting built? The devs seemed quite concerned when adding remote rotating of a belt that it might feel odd for it just to happen, but this is on another level and they don't mention it.

- How are we getting back down once we are up in space? The vanilla rocket doesn't really have a reusable capsule.

- For that matter how are items sent back down from a platform?

- Do we get to keep our inventories when going to space? I'd guess not as that would highly encourage manual transportation of items to space.

- If we need interplanetary logistics and can only send things one stack per rocket do we need low quantities of these items or do we need to launch huge numbers of rockets? Or are rocket inventories bigger now?

- If things get auto-requested by platforms how does the rocket know when to launch? Does it launch even with just one item in it? If not how does a single ghost item get built if it's missing on a platform?

- If blue science leads to rockets do we get advanced stuff like LDS and RCU earlier or are rockets different?

- We only see gun turrets on the platforms. Are laser turrets ineffective against asteroids?

The platform is thick enough to have some machinery inside. We didn't show it, as it is still work in progress, but there is going to be a scaffolding animation related to building tiles and entities.

From a game design perspective, getting down is for free. There is some capsule landing animation/mechanics in progress, while in the current playtesting version, things just teleport down. When it comes to the way how do you request things down there and how it all works together, it will be covered later.

You can't keep your inventory, only your armor. Platform payload is quite limited, more on it later.

Rockets are not limited per stack, but per weight, more on it later. But even so, you are going to send quite a big amount of rockets in the expansion (many thousands at least, probably more, but don't forget rockets are 20 times less expensive now), this is why rockets were made much cheaper and little bit more simple to produce, to not make the whole expansion about the rocket production.

By default, rocket is always waiting for the full capacity of the requested item, to not waste resources. So if you built one belt, by default, full rocket of belts is sent. You can also make mixed rockets, but only manually if you really care about not sending anything extra, there is not a big motivation to do it, as one rocket is not such a big deal anymore. The request can be configured to not wait for the full capacity, and specific number can be specified, but it is rarely used.

LDS is blue science. It is a detail, so I can tell it here, but RCU was cancelled as an item, and blue chip (processing unit) is used instead of it. This is to lower the focus on rockets, especially because you have to produce rockets on every planets eventually.

Each asteroid type has a different preffered weapon. Laser turrets are only efficient against the small asteroids, and the medium one need at least a gun turret. Since energy is quite scarce on the platform, it is usually better strategy to just use gun turrets for both small and medium asteroids.

about 1 year ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by kevihaa

The problem was, that the actual gameplay produced by this system proved to be incredibly annoying very quickly. The reason is, that you need many different items in small quantities to build all the platform mini-factory and the only reasonable solution to do that was weird

With that you could go explore planets. This sounds great until you realize that the player isn't quite getting anything useful out of any of this until they have successfully brought science packs back from another planet.

Sounds like they are solving some of the major issues with pacing that have plagued SE from the start.

Honestly, having the actual team at Wube act as editors for Space Exploration is a bit of dream come true, as the bones of the mod are just amazing, but it desperately needed to be trimmed and refined.

Hopefully when the Space Age fork of SE is released it’s able to incorporate these QoL improvements.

Thanks!
I think that the key is to realize that making things approachable and better paced is not the same as dumbing things down.

about 1 year ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by KyraDragoness

Tiles being instantly built is a bit strange.
Why not have tentacles that can build everything in a certain range, and the hub has its own tentacle to start with ?

This is WIP, I saw what the graphics team is planning, and it is fantastic, just wait :)

about 1 year ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by DrSouce12

Well I’m somewhat disappointed as this FFF partially confirms my main fear with the update - reducing the need/complication of using combinators in material logistics.

Why make it so easy to load the silo?

The core challenge to this game is effective and thoughtful material logistics. Making everything a requester chest that has access to the bot network simplifies this challenge to silly levels.

In the current game, one of the main distinctions that is noticeable between a good player and a great player is mastery of combinator logic. Now it seems like no mastery of combinator logic will give you an advantage over just using the built in request or function of the silo…

They left it open that there were niche cases where the logistics may be more difficult (maybe there is a planet where you can’t use bots), so maybe the entire game is not being simplified, but it concerns me.

The complexity of current combinators creates a nice reward when you master them…but the best use for combinators is the management of dynamic material logistics…if the devs think that is “annoying” then I’m not sure what they have planned for combinators and circuit logic.

I'm just finishing an internal DLC playthrough, and I never used so many combinators in my life as now. Apart the things where it is already useful in vanilla (wall resupply logic for example), there are new challanges where circuit network helps a lot in the expansion.

On the platform for example, you can make a simple, but not so efficient setup where you just throw things out in a simple way and keep what you need. But you can do smart things with circuit setup, reprocess asteroids and keep track of what you need to make the platform much more efficient.

And we didn't get to the planet mechanics yet.

The point is, that some things are fun or challanging to make, and some things are just a lot of work, and we want to differentiate these two.

about 1 year ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by bm13kk

I am not sure, that plain "no gaps" will work for your goal. A spiral structure (like the Milky Way with only 2 arms) will have the same issue and have no gaps.

If you need topology solutions - you need to have a "clear" goal.

But since underground belts can't go over empty space (under what?), it would be really hard to build a factory on that.

about 1 year ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by warchamp7

This made me wonder, what happens right now if you try to underground belt across water? Does it prevent it?

Water is still fine, but there are other examples where it doesn't work in the expansion later on.






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