6 months ago - V453000 - Direct link

Hello, last week you've seen how Gleba looks, it's time to get a glimpse of what you can do there.

With the idea of being a biological planet full of life, it seems reasonable to expect our engineer is about to harvest some of that.

We already have ways of harvesting nature, specifically trees. On Nauvis we either just hit them with an axe enough times, or later our construction robots take care of that friendly forest devastation.

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These tools aren't quite up to speed to be a part of a mass-production chain in our factories, though...

Both of the Nauvis methods are initiated manually so not the best for automation, and the trees don't grow back - so once an area has been harvested, you need to move your operation further.


Agricultural tower

The Agricultural tower is a new machine unlocked on Gleba. It automatically harvests trees in its range.

There are two plants on Gleba which are specifically interesting as they can be not just harvested, but also re-planted by the tower. Today we'll have a look at one of them.

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Agricultural tower harvesting and re-planting a tree. A lot of the things you see here are subject to change.

Harvesting a plant yields fruit, which can then be processed in an assembling machine into usable products - and seeds.

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Fruit being processed in an assembling machine, resulting in seeds and mash.

Seeds can then be put back into the Agricultural tower to seed a new plant. The plant will grow over time, and when it matures the Agricultural tower will automatically harvest it.

Each new plant is seeded with a 3-tile gap from each other, resulting in a square pattern. This contributes to the entire process feeling artificial, like a plantation, rather than just wild nature.

The agricultural plants can only be seeded on very specific tiles, so you'll need to obey some environmental conditions. As you can probably guess though, this is Factorio, so we'll for sure let you wreck said environment with special landfill-like soils you'll be able to develop with just a bit of research.

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Larger scale farming using artificial soil.


Biochamber

Every planet we have presented so far has a unique crafting structure, here on Gleba it is the Biochamber.

It is used to process all of the plant fruits into more industrial products like carbon fiber or a mysterious material we call Bioflux, but more on that later.

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A tiny bit of Biochamber processing.

The quirk of the Biochamber is that it needs to be fed Nutrients to operate.

Unlike the Foundry and Electromagnetic plant, the Biochamber isn't really used for any Nauvis recipes, but it has its own set of recipes which basically replace oil processing on this planet.


Spoilage

All this time you're probably asking yourself (or already posting messages about it before reading further) what are the weird white lines in the images above.

Now we're getting into what makes Gleba really special - When fruit is harvested, or most other biological products are made, it will eventually spoil - which turns it into a new item we call Spoilage.

This process is inevitable and can't be delayed, however different items have different spoil times, ranging from about 2 hours to mere minutes. This means that there are ways to control the mechanic and optimize for getting a less spoiled product in the end.

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Organic items eventually turn into Spoilage.

The reason why you're optimizing for a better product is because recipe results inherit their freshness from the ingredients. This means that when you craft a product out of a 30% spoiled ingredient, the product will also be 30% spoiled.

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You can't serve a fresh salad from moldy lettuce either.

Effectively the spoilable items need to be perceived as temporary, and it's the throughput that matters, while in contrast buffering a stockpile isn't helpful at all.

When we were considering the idea of timed life for items, one of the first questions was whether they should just disappear or turn into something. If they just disappeared it would be more convenient as you wouldn't need to worry about the piles of spoilage you're inevitably going to accumulate, but you wouldn't know that something had spoiled as there would be no traces of it.

That's why spoilage exists, and we have multiple methods to get rid of it - you can burn it, waste it in a recycler, or create nutrients that are already half-spoilt.

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Three examples of getting rid of spoilage.

To avoid this mechanic being over the top and to allow meaningful decisions to be made, there are some items where their freshness doesn't contribute to the final product as the final product is something that isn't spoilable. On the other hand, the new Agricultural science packs do spoil which reduces their value for research, so you will be incentivized to try to bring home the freshest science packs you can.

There are some items and recipes with spoilable ingredients which need to be crafted on different planets, so on top of optimizing the production chain, it'll also be meaningful to make a fast space platform to deliver them.

The main tools for manipulating spoilables are inserters, with a new ability to prioritize the freshest or the most spoiled items when picking up from inventories, and filtering out spoilage with splitters.


Design journey

Over the time we've been developing the Gleba gameplay, it went through some drastic changes.

Initially we had about 10 plants which were harvested directly into items like plastic or sulfur, but it just became very broad but shallow, and tedious as a result. It is worth noting that it wasn't very interesting either, as that's basically how a mining drill works. Instead, we've reduced it to 2 plants to cultivate, and their fruits are processed into a much wider variety of items - also in much higher volumes - which restored the feeling of building a factory in the way we know and love.

The seeds are not only useful for new plants, but also for creating biochambers and the seedable soil tiles, so there's some decisions to be made where you invest them.


Conclusion

All in all, we are confident that the gameplay of Gleba is different enough to be interesting, yet builds on similar enough principles to feel familiar and well, actually be fun!

The visuals are still subject to change along with improvements to some effects. The graphics of the new machines you can see here come primarily from our usual suspects Earendel on concept art, with Jerzy taking care of the 3D pipeline. The agricultural tower has a very long telescopic arm, much longer than any other legs or arms, which resulted in being very technically demanding to make, both for Jerzy and for Lou breaking their brains with the drawing code. The biochamber was more straight forward but Jerzy had a field day with his crazy geometry nodes simulations.

There's a lot more details to be shared, but those will be easier to digest when you have the game in your hands, and/or in some later FFF.


As always, bring your half-spoiled fish to the market of opinions.

6 months ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by TheGuyWithTheSeal

You don't really need to update how spoiled every item is every tick. Most of the math can be done just by knowing when the item was created.

Only tricky part is knowing when an item has spoilt completly. Here i can see 2 sollutions:

  • Priority queue of all spoilable items sorted by how much time they have left. Only the front of the queue has to be checked every tick. Insertion can be costly.

  • Not doing any math when the item spoils, instead checking for spoilage when it's interacted with (processed, displayed, etc.). Probably requires more code changes (but it's pretty much what was done already for quality). Maybe breaks current production statistics logic.

More or less this. The spoiling mechanics is pretty cheap performance wise, it wouldn't be viable otherwise.

6 months ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by WerewolfNo890

I suspect the same SPM megabases will be possible as it will be done with fewer machines that have higher throughput at high quality. The question is more about can we go higher or not.

We expect (and try to prepare) for bigger factories overall. We didn't really introduce any significant performance penalties with the new mechanics.

You obviously need more stuff to be done to do the end research, as you need to produce the base game stuff + science pack on each planet + the silo transport and space platforms update.

This is partially (if not fully) offset by more performant machines, and we are planning to do some optimisations on top of that.

6 months ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by CosmicNuanceLadder

Initial reaction was that I hated it. I've always disliked the notion of growing things in Factorio, as I feel that it obfuscates the timescale of the game. If you can grow trees in seconds with speed modules, does that still feel immersive...?

By the end of the FFF, I was sold. It's totally worth the new spoilage mechanic imposing new limitations on the factory. I'd never thought of that and yet it seems so obvious—getting an item from point A to point B in a given time immediately feels like a fundamental hurdle we were always supposed to overcome.

Gleba looks like a fantastic logistic challenge, as does Fulgora with its recycling mechanics. Vulcanus looks a bit vanilla in comparison at this point.

Yes, in my recent playthrough I started to experiment and optimise for the spoilage more, and it just feels new and fun.

  1. All robots base is not good, because you can't control the flow and freshness with robots so well, so belts are better
  2. Since some of the intermediates spoil really fast, even the distance of belt between individual producers (or direct insertion) makes sense to consider
  3. I was transporting some of the fruits by belts to my base, as it was not that far as was ok, but then I made a specialised train connection, not to improve throughput but to increase the speed.
  4. All these little contraptions to keep "the best for export" are new.

P.S. You can't grow trees in seconds, you just can't put modules into the agriculture tower.

6 months ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by pdelvo

I wonder how its going to work with the inventory. Im guessing spoilable things wont stack

Spoilable things stack, when you merge two differently spoiled items, the spoilage is just avaraged. Which is not realistic, but good enough compromise.

6 months ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by Erfar

how modifiable are spoiledge? Is it in theory possible to make scince pack-downgrade-spoiledge? sol if you not use your space science it will slowly turn into yellow, then to blue then green and then you find that you could get all your red science just by spoiling space science?

For every spoilable item, you can specify which item is created once it spoils. So mods can do crazy kind of things really.

6 months ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by mensabaer

TL; DR: Non-linear research value falloff curve could further incentivize speed-optimized building and deincentivize horizontal scaling

I don't think this was mentioned in the FFF but I thing a non-linear research falloff would be cool - incentivizing ASAP delivery of science packs even further by not only decreasing value over time but also eg. adding an increased bonus above eg. 70% or so (a percentage that is deemed reasonably achieveable with normal efforts)

Think 70% is the "target" reseach value of 1, below, it scales linearly (to not punish slower/inexperienced players too much) whilst above scaling exponentially to eg. 3 research value at 100% (which is impossible to achieve but deliberately lacks a cut-off point, which could be a fun challenge to push towards 100% as much as possible whilst also feeling more rewarding).

Reasoning is that this would introduce a challenge of time-dependend vertical scaling which is not as easily substituted by brute-horizontal scaling - The player would have to think about either putting down 3x-5x the amount of infrastructure as opposed to maybe 2x with linear scaling

However, of course, this would increase complexity perhaps above the reasonable level, so a more straight-forward approach with either a consistent non-linear (cooler imo) or linear curve (simpler) with each 0-100%, Range 0-1 or maybe 0-2 research value will probably be more sensible

This is considerable, but I think the simple linear approach is fine in this case, because: 1. It is simple (always an important argument) 2. With the cost of transport (exporing the science to another planet means sending it by rocket, moving it by space platform, and finally distribute to laboratories back home), it seems very important to try to send as fresh as possible, instead of scaling all parts of the transportation (and consumption) of the science packs.

6 months ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by wargodiv

The spoilage mechanic looks great! I have a question though: do half-spoiled items stack the way science packs/ammo do? It would be quite inefficient if they didn't, but combining items can mess with the spoilage rate (two half-spoiled fruits spoil faster than a fresh one)

Edit: I suppose a stack can be stored as an array of how many 1%-100% packs is in a stack, displaying the 'sum' as how many full items you have and 'count' is used for the spoilage rate and inserters will extract the 'true' items, but maybe that's not the route the devs went for

They just avarage the same way damaged items average.

6 months ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by acockshott

Overall this looks really cool and unique, I like the emphasis this creates on speed and throughput. BUT the implication is that once you've automated production of the Agricultural science pack, you're incentivised to constantly be researching technologies which use it from that point onward, otherwise you risk spoiling 100s or 1000s of science packs in the time that you research anything else.

I suppose we could switch off large parts of the Gleba factory when its science packs aren't in demand (maybe through big circuit networks?) but that seems like a hassle and somewhat against the spirit of the game.

I have no doubt they've tested these features and thought all this through so sooner or later we'll find out what the solution is or if it's not really a big deal, either way I can't wait to see what's next!! :)

If you want a reliable factory (you do), you just have to make all the steps of the process to be able to handle things not being consumed and spoiling.

This means, that the lab area just has to be able to deal with agriculture packs spoiling and removing the spoilage automatically.

At this point you just think about the production as X per minute, and you either use it or not, but there is not a big loss of just not using ot for a while (letting it spoil), while you research something else.

I understand it might be psychologically hard to just "throw things away", but in the game, it is comparable to production being backed up, and mines not mining, because there is no more ore to being processed. When the factory gets backed up and stops, it is in practice the same loss as when it works all the time, and sometimes you just throw it away.

6 months ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by 0b0101011001001011

Can I have legendary spoiled stuff?

You can and you will have!

There isn't a big motivation to make spoilable items in a quality, but spoilable items are ingredients to some very important non-spoilable result items, once you make the final item in time, it is there forever.

The problem arises, when you decide to recycle the item as a way to get it in higher quality. In that moment, you introduce spoilable items into the equation again, and since the recycler results are also randomized (25% of ingredients means 25% of getting an item if there is exactly 1), you will end up in situation when you get only the spoilable part to be re-assembled but the other non-spoilable ingredients don't come in time.

It evens itself out in the long run, as you will eventually have enough of non-spoilabe ingredients accumulated only waiting for the last spoilable ingredient, so eventually it will always process the spoilable part immediatelly.

Long story short, yes I burned/removed a lot of legendary spoilage during my play :)

6 months ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by PM_ME_FETLOCKS

As someone who works with grocery logistics in RL, this is my time to shine

Fifo

Correct, fifo is the mantra :)

6 months ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by Kasern77

I'm confused about the part where you insert spoilage into the recycler. From the image it just looks like the same spoilage comes out. What exactly happens to it when it goes through the recycler?

The general mechanic of recycle says, that when you recycle something that can't be broken into smaller part, the recycler basically works as a "voider" returning only 25% of the incomming items.

6 months ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by Mornar

Even if you can't base usefulness on specific spoilage progress, you can definitely have too-hot-metal spoiling into just-right-metal spoiling into too-cold-metal. Bit multiplicative in terms of different item types needed, but possible.

Yes, it is almost always better to make different types of items for these kind of mechanics. Mainly because all of the game tools you have are design and work based on item types (inserter/splitter filters, the whole logistic system, train interrupts etc)

6 months ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by RoastCabose

In the real world spoilage can be mitigated, but it can't be stopped in most cases. Remember this is a game of abstractions after all. The brute force method is to send it as fast as possible, which encourages things like direct insertion, circuit use, hyper compact production.

Also remember that the stuff you're shipping in space likely has the spoil time of hours, and the stuff that spoils in minutes shouldn't last more than a few minutes in your production.

I do think the keeping things hot could be an interesting new thing, but that would be different in the sense that you can work on keeping things hot for it's whole existence, where as spoilage definitely has an end point.

I bet they didn't do refrigeration to keep the complexity down. Because if you implement refrigeration and it stops spoilage, than it is completely necessary and just adds extra steps without much design consideration. If refrigeration simply slows down spoilage, then that is an interesting design wrinkle, but could massively increase the complexity of production. They want to strike a balance in the xpac where the new stuff is more complex then the base game, but not a massive leap.

All of this to say though, all these new mechanics will definitely be moddable, and you know that there will be mod packs about expanding these to more logical, and complex, end points.

Exactly. Generally speaking, the game with the expansion is big enough, and if something, we are looking for ways to simplify/shorten it a little because it was almost too much. This means, that at this point anything that adds to the amount of items/steps of things you should do to finish the game needs to have VERY good reason to exist. Refrigirators seems like just more steps, and the mechanics in the core would still be the same.

6 months ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by Kasern77

Okay I get it now, thanks. Although I don't see why anyone would use recyclers to get rid of only some of the spoilage when a boiler can burn all of it. Especially when the former uses power while the latter provides power.

It is mostly a consistency thing, as you can use recycler to void other non-burnable items (iron plate for example), so it would be weird if it consumed everything BUT spoilable items.

Also, the recycle to itself can be used to try to increase quality of products which can't be broken into ingredients if you use quality modules for the process.

6 months ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by 13ros27

Does that mean that gleba science only requires renewable resources (the trees and I guess water) and doesn't use anything mined somewhere in the recipe because if it did then it would surely still make sense to switch the factory off?

Only the materials to build the rockets take minable resources. But with all of the productivity researches and the super rich (and small) gleba resources paches, it seems to be completely negligable. (I didn't have to tap other than the 1st mine on gleba in my 300h playthrough)

6 months ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by Garagantua

Since we've seen new "infinite research" with just the Nauvis sciences, I assumed that there'll be _some_ infinite tech with pretty much every one (and maybe even combination of?) new science pack. Otherwise in my first solo playthrough, I might automate the first planet, go to the second - and my research either stops, or continues without the new pack I just managed to import.

If these "some but not all new planet science pack" infinite techs exist, then that's a really good reason to have *solid* production of the "usual" packs on your lab planet, and you just use whatever you can from the new ones.

...until you're at a point where you really want that shiny new infinite technoligy that uses _all the packs_.

More or less this. You can almost always research something infinite whatever route you do. There is the steel productivity research, which doesn't even use science production.

6 months ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by SuspiciousAd3803

In theory, is recycling a method of un-spoiling an item? In other words if product 1 has like 5% freshness and I recycle it and get component 2, will component 2 have 100% freshness or will the freshness be derived from product 1

Freshness is always derived from product.

6 months ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by Soul-Burn

Which damaged items average in 1.1? 

In 1.1 buildings remember their damage, while ammo/science just merge, losing final item.

Is this a change for 2.0?

You made me unsure, so I just double checked in 1.1, and damaged items average indeed. Try to make 75% damaged belt and 25% damaged belt, mine them into the inventory, viola, you have 50% damaged belts X 2

6 months ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by Smoke_The_Vote

Cheap, even with the need to re-average a spoilable item stack every time an inserter/robot drops another item into the chest?

Or, I guess maybe a stack's new spoil rating only get calculated when it's needed?

It is a small extra operation in the process of merging two item stacks, it is completely negligable.

6 months ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by Soul-Burn

What is the freshness value of a normal non-perishable item? Does it remember the freshness it was made with?

No, once it gets out of the spoilable area, it is all the same. And when you recycle it, it gets 100% freshness no matter you made it from.

6 months ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by CzTd

What does happen when the inventory is full with non-spoiled items and a spoil event occurs?

Like I have a chest filled with coal, and 1 stack with apples.

What will happen with the spoils? Will they get deleted? Chest will have additional slot?

The stack of apples becomes a stack of spoilage, the chest being full or not seems to be irelevant to me.

6 months ago - /u/kovarex - Direct link

Originally posted by Full_War_4717

Hm. If item transformation is indeed evaluated lazily, this might result in an interesting corner case with mods:

  • item1 should be turned to item2, which is also spoilable. For consistency the "overflow" time should be applied to item2;
  • which might trigger it spoiling as well, turning it into (also spoilable) item3, etc.  

This can result in significant hiccup, especially with short spoilage time and a loop in transformations, unless such spoilage loops are detected at initialization time, so that process can use module over total loop time to save repeated iterations.

Item transformation is evaluated instantly, but it is cheap, as it is basically once per item stack.






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