about 2 months ago - Mike_Weicker - Direct link

I think the accusations of malicious intent with the system is what might be rubbing people the wrong way. This style of system is one of my favorite things to do in ARPGs.

about 2 months ago - Mike_Weicker - Direct link

I’ll give you extremely thinly veiled at best.

about 2 months ago - Mike_Weicker - Direct link

Never said that. You accused us of intentionally creating a skinner box. I said this style of comments might be a reason some people are not happy having this discussion with you. You claimed this was not the case. I backed it up.

I also refute that we have created a skinner box at all.

about 2 months ago - Mike_Weicker - Direct link

Ok, thanks for the feedback.

about 2 months ago - Mike_Weicker - Direct link

Is this a popular opinion? I sometimes joke about this but I didn’t expect anyone to actually want that. Would you prefer it if we just did something like make items only able to have 2 exalted mods max and make 4xT7 items completely impossible to exist?

edit: I don’t want to push the issue so I won’t ask again and cause the topic to go off again but I am still interested in this question. If anyone feels this way, I’d be interested in another topic on it or hearing from you directly.

Edit 2: after getting a couple DMs about this, I just want to clarify something. I’m really just looking for a yes or no here. I don’t need a full version of how it could work, I’d just like to know if you want to see an arbitrary cap for max tiers on an item in some way or not.

about 2 months ago - Mike_Weicker - Direct link

Thanks

about 2 months ago - Mike_Weicker - Direct link

I’m sorry to derail this topic even more but this is actually really interesting to me and I think it’s a valuable discussion. I might just be completely desensitized to this from playing way to much D2 and I’d like to get some more information on it if you’re up for it. So I’d like to try and draw some parallels and find out where the line is for you.

For the purposes of this comparison, I’d like to pretend we are playing D2 in offline mode or at least just solo so we don’t have trading. Let’s take a look at the process of getting a perfect Last Wish runeword from D2. It is super not necessary to beat the game and is more of a show off piece than anything. It has an astronomical cost of Jah + Mal + Jah + Sur + Jah + Ber. most people who play D2 don’t play enough to ever find a Mal, let alone the rarer Sur, let alone the even rarer Ber, let alone the crazy wtf rarer 3 Jah runes. Then we also have to find a base for the item, a perfect 6os 15% ED Phase Blade should do nicely (I don’t think PBs can get enhanced durability because they are indestructible but it’s been a while). Luckily because we aren’t accepting anything other than perfect, this piece is actually reusable if we are ok destroying the runes inside. Then we have to get perfect rolls on the item itself. Because the chance of hitting any one spot in the range is equal, you have a 1/46 chance (2.17%) for the ED roll and a 1/11 (9.1%) for the CB. This is a 1/506 (0.198%) chance of getting a perfect roll on the unbelievably expensive item you’ve just created.

So I do want to point out that there are several differences in this system and getting that perfect T28 exalted item because it just has to drop as is right out of the gate. You can re-roll the mods on it though so you have a few cracks at the perfect version which is nice. Both of these hypothetical items are non-deterministic to find. You might play either game for a decade and never get them.

This isn’t an attempt to refute your points at all. I would like your opinion if these are similar cases or if they are different in the item acquisition flow. If they are, what is the key property that makes them different and why?

about 1 month ago - Mike_Weicker - Direct link

Thanks for your replies. I’m really looking for very specific information so sticking as close to the question asked really helps the most. Answering adjacent questions is interesting but if you could keep it as close to these specific questions as possible, that would really be awesome.

I would like to ask another narrow comparison question. I have written out the stats for two hypothetical D2 items and two hypothetical LE items. I’ve intentionally left out what item types they are. I’m sure the eagle eyed among you will be able to tell immediately but I hope we can just look at the stat differences in a bubble. Each item has the same stats as its counterpart. The quantities of these stats are different.

D2 Item 1 D2 Item 2
Defense; 444

Chance to Block: 40%

10% Chance To Cast Level 15 Confuse When Struck

Level 15 Holy Shock Aura When Equipped

+21% Faster Hit Recovery

+30% Enhanced Defense

+164 Defense

+10 To Vitality

+50 To Life

+51 To Mana

All Resistances +6

14% Better Chance of Getting Magic Items

Defense; 376

Chance to Block: 47%

10% Chance To Cast Level 15 Confuse When Struck

Level 15 Holy Shock Aura When Equipped

+29% Faster Hit Recovery

+30% Enhanced Defense

+219 Defense

+10 To Vitality

+50 To Life

+51 To Mana

All Resistances +18

23% Better Chance of Getting Magic Items

LE Item 1 LE Item 2
+25% Block Chance

+789 Block Effectiveness

+100% block chance against Nearby Enemies

14 Health Gain on Block

+13 Melee Physical Damage

+59 Health

+58 Mana

+25% Block Chance

+1554 Block Effectiveness

+100% block chance against Nearby Enemies

28 Health Gain on Block

+9 Melee Physical Damage

+177 Health

+42 Mana

I don’t want to get into the specifics of how rare each of these items are relative to each other or how rare each of the sets are to each other.

Questions:

  • Would you consider the D2 items to be the same item? Why?
  • Would you consider the LE items to be the same item? Why?

Please don’t try to figure out or post if they are actually the same item.

Please don’t post what you think the items are, I’ve been intentionally a little sneaky in defining them and I will update the post with details of what they actually are in a while. I also fully understand that this is a bit of a contrived comparison. I’m attempting to isolate specific properties to find the line. Once I have a few answers, I’ll ask the question again with the rest of the item details revealed.

Edit: I’m going to compile a better set of questions to properly collect data with. For anyone who was curious, the D2 items were a Dream Troll Nest and a Dream Monarch. The LE items were a normal Bastion of Honor and a 3LP Legendary BoH created with a T26 (7/7/7/5) exalted.

I’ll be back in a different thread with better examples. Sorry to derail this one again.

about 1 month ago - Mike_Weicker - Direct link

Ok, but aside from trying to do the detective work to find out what item they are. If you didn’t have that information, would you consider them the same item. I really want to stress that this isn’t a test to see if you know what item they are.

about 1 month ago - Mike_Weicker - Direct link

Yea, it’s hard to describe and I wasn’t really sure the best way to put it. I’m trying to figure out where the line is for what is considered a different item. Like if you were describing a build and were saying that you need Woven Flesh unique armour to be your chest piece, you’re really describing any Woven Flesh regardless of the rolls. For the purposes of describing what item you need, a slightly above average rolled one is essentially the same as an average rolled one.

So I created 2 items that are more different than that but took away some identifying factors like what colour the text of the name would be written in to see where that line was and used what I thought would be a good control option from another game. I might do up a bigger version of this with a few dozen LE only comparisons if I think it is going to be useful.

So I guess with that extra information, would you consider the D2 and/or LE items the “same item” as each other (within their own categories)?

about 1 month ago - Mike_Weicker - Direct link

Yea, I guess I shouldn’t have used a real example and instead should have manufactured fake ones to get away from this.

And I think it’s less about being vague but rather, trying to isolate variables and ask simple questions.

about 1 month ago - Mike_Weicker - Direct link

I fully understand that. I can see that I was not clear at all. I will regroup and make a proper post with better examples. I wasn’t trying to prove a point or anything, I’m just attempting to collect data here.

about 1 month ago - Mike_Weicker - Direct link

It’s monarch vs troll nest, both are elite level shields. Monarch is generally considered the best in most situations. They have different block speeds too so it’s not entirely 1:1