Sylas no longer permanently gains health and increases in model size from successful kills with a stolen R - Feast from an enemy Cho'Gath
I know it started doing this a couple patches ago (unless he currently was holding a Cho R) but sad to see it officially go :((
Edit: /u/RiotSquad5 confirmed it's actually returning to permanently grant stacks rather than only gaining the bonuses while "holding" Cho R.
Patch note is wrong. Fixed it so this interaction works again, not made it so it doesn't.
Oh, wow! This'll be sick as hell for Diana players. What's your thoughts on Diana Jungle? Was that intended to be buffed or do you guys still want to try to keep her out?
We wanted Diana jungle to be stronger overall. We still want mid to be the primary lane, but if she can exist in both and be in a good spot that's what we're aiming for.
I like how you say that with so much confidence and nothing to back it up. A vast majority of the times, its unintentional, because programmers/designers aren't always professional/mains of the champs they work on. They don't know the ins and outs of all of their moves. They just know how to make the magic happen, or make a seemingly creative concept come to life.
What is true is that they didn't swap her R/E, they recreated them. If you tried to recreate something (like a drawing), there's going to be SOME differences even if you try to avoid it. It's probably an unintentional quirk IMO. It wouldn't be a leap to assume they just were like "Okay I'll just create a new Dash move for her E" and then they left out all the little niche things you can do with it.
Are you talking about me? I literally made the changes. I know what was intentional and what was an accident.
Our QA team told me about this interaction, and I decided that she should get the reset still if the target dies and made the change.
This is WAY too big of a change to omit in patch notes, I don't think this is intentional
This is intentional. You underestimate my powers of forgetting things for the patch notes.
[removed]
One of my goals is to rescript her entirely. It's tricky obviously because her logic is (at least from what I've seen) some of the most lengthy and intense scripting on any champion. Obviously you can see where that could cause bugs, but they usually lie in the combination of things that we actually do want, so I need to go back and start from scratch likely.
The one good thing is that I should be better at it by now.
I would definitely look at him not always being treated as melee when dashing to camps. I’ll see if I can repro tonight and get back to you. I know it only happens in certain cases.
I suppose it’s when I do the repress. I’ll commonly q to repress and then as I’m dashing I’ll click on the camp (with vision) and that behavior will occur. I’ll try to repro this tonight as well
Thanks, even that description is super helpful.
It’s a difference between early and late game.
Early game being melee and dashing onto the camps makes clearing much faster and allows you to go over walls.
When you’re ranged you can’t necessarily go over every wall. Hence a lot of players are suggesting that you always go up to the target as if melee.
Also I assume you can’t just make Ivern always ranged without some sort of trade off, will that be lower W on-hit damage or where is the power going to come from?
Side note: please allow him to properly queue Q dash and passive. Right now he’ll do it for a second, fail, and then you have to wait a couple seconds before you can try again.
Dashing to camps should always treat Ivern as melee ranged already (though there may still be cases where he gets stopped on walls but that isn't intended). Basically, all of Ivern's dashes are special cased to attempt to get him into the range he would like. Only allied dashes are uniform, since it would obviously be too much to take every champ into consideration.
He may need to be nerfed in some way to compensate, or he may not. Currently he's not a pro risk and is only strong in the hands of experienced mains. Imo we have room to buff him moderately without causing a problem.
To your side note, is that when you reactivate Q or when you click to dash? I almost always click and haven't seen that problem, but I imagine there could be some problem that arises from the repress.
I'm having trouble understanding this argument. Ivern already compensates for his range on his dash for his E. He's always done that. Good Ivern players also almost always have their range buff, and so this should change very little for them outside of removing the annoying case where they stay out of brush for slightly too long and screw themselves over.
That aside, if problems were caused by the range change we can easily adjust and compensate for it. The whole point of testing changes for such a long period of time is to discover those potential problems.
Also, hopefully to spread the info a bit, I've already confirmed I wont be removing Daisy being controllable.
He actually did laugh on EVERY cast of an enemy ultimate at one point. Enough people complained that I ended up changing it to only happen the first cast.
I think we can all agree that was a mistake.
HOW DO YOU EXPECT ME TO DESIGN ULTIMATES WHEN SYLAS CAN JUST STEAL THEM!!!!1!
He acts like this is a joke. People actually say this to me.
Good to know that public data made his situation look worse than it actually is. It's true that its common for people to mistake balance for design. I do think that the rework made steps in the right direction and now agree even with the removal of W shield that I used to hate.
I talked with Repertoir a bit on twitter and linked him a twitlonger of my thoughts as a long time Ornn player. Its more thought out and less emotional and dramatic than this post, so if you are at all interested I'd love for you as his designer to check out the experience of one season 2 veteran who liked Ornn so much that he is now the only champ I'm interested in playing.
I think you have some good points, and I appreciate how much you care about Ornn. I agree that shifting some power around would probably be helpful for him overall - and that he needs more personal power rather than shared power. Any buffs we do are probably going to look like that.
Something I’ve been curious about that I was hoping you could share some color on — when champs get hit with the “powerful in coordinated play, weak in solo play” debacle, why isn’t the approach to nerf the part of their kit that causes this. E.g. with Ornn, why not hit his ult range, or with ryze his ult range (or changing his point and click/uber op gank setup [w] to be a projectile or otherwise less consistent somehow).
Is it champion identity?
We might just be disagreeing on what actually is causing the problem. I'm not sure about Ryze, but the feeling for Ornn was the combination of his W's lane dominance plus the R's power. If you remember, the R also was nerfed as a part of his changes (less slow on R1, knockup time reduction for R2).
The short answer is that we do try to target the thing we feel is causing the problem with a strong nerf, and see where we can put power back to compensate. Our track record recently is mixed, obviously, but I think it actually trends toward positive (irelia, akali being examples).
Read moreHi again Squad5! It's me from Twitter/YouTube. Just wanted to give some feedback on recent changes (reminder I talk from a jungle/support only perspective so am sensitive to his top power as a byproduct of any changes that benefit off-roles):
W CDR buff: I liked this and it has made putting points in W feel great in tighter situations where 2 seconds really does matter - also really useful over time on clears and rotations. More W/brittle up time = more damage so obviously will feel good.
Q/E timer QoL: Used this many times in the past week and the surprise turn around with enemies expect pillar to fall but it doesn't has been fun.
Base HP/AR 9.2: Was relatively unnoticed but felt good in early laning phase and jungle clear.
Glad to hear you are thinking of something else but I feel we are very, very close. The 9.6 changes helped and on Twitter, we talked about durability that the shield provided, and now we fel...
Not entirely sure right now, but I think increasing durability early on is probably the safest route as long as it isn't tied to his trade windows like the W shield was before.
Not promising anything but I think we have space for a buff now that things have settled, and one of the things I'm going to TRY to do is see if I can give him a shield somewhere like a lot of players want. Likely going to test it on the E somewhere first.
I know it can be frustrating, but unfortunately I've needed to let things settle and take time for testing and making sure I'm not going to undo the gains we actually got.
What's your opinion on how the aatrox "mini rework" was handled and designed?
It was the first known situation to me of "make champion unplayable in a mechanical and damage sense" in order to give them room to be buffed, essentially reducing the champion in all aspects in order to push it in a certain direction.
These in the past have been targeted at making the champion more accessible to the general populace, but as a result have the effect of hurting their popularity with original players, as making them more accessible inherently must lower the skill level entry point for the champion for it to begin to be picked up at the levels of play with the most dense populations of players (lower elo).
I'm not a fan of this style myself as it negatively impacts higher elo strategies and often removes the strengths associated with the previous higher difficulty of the champion.
I think in the long run a champion being kept weak because of pro strength actually hurts its playerbase more. I do think though that sometimes rough changes need to be made in order to actually solve the problem. The key is having good followup to actually give the champion back power and hopefully feel improvements to make up for it.
he is already seeing players in pro on current patch, if you buff him again, alone with all the tank buffs latetly, he is gonna be back to picked everygame again.
That's the reason there's hesitation to give him a solid buff. I think it's worth the risk though, considering the work we did to make it possible.
Hey Squad5, nice to see you dropping in here. Let me say that i absolutely love the concept of Ornn as i've longed for a blacksmith champ in LoL.
I don't play him that much now, but what do you think of the thematic changes of the rework, since he went from safe solo laner, with good dueling power and good teamfight, to bad laner with good teamfight and passive gold bump to allies.
Did you notice any changes to playerbase ? Did the Old Ornn mains stayed or did he gained new mains ? I'm quite curious about that.
I think he became a bit worse in lane than I expected, but he needed that to give us the space to give him power elsewhere. If anything I think we need to buff his early game a bit but leave most of his strength in later stages of the game, which is in line with what tanks probably should be for.
Playerbase is kind of a mix, some new, some returning, some that were playing and still play. It kind of depends what things you liked about Ornn. Losing his lane dominance is only really one aspect of him.
He's actually at around 48% in our data, but I agree he's too weak right now and am pushing for a buff for him. The point of the changes were to make it possible for us to actually buff him, which in my mind were a success because he's actually in a state where we CAN.
I never expected the balance to be perfect immediately after the changes, in fact I was surprised at how much we gained from them by themselves, but he's shifted down a bit over time.
Imo often people are too quick to conflate a champion literally just being underpowered with having some severe design problem. If we can get him a 2-3% buff he's going to feel a lot better, and hopefully not be at 100% pro presence again.
Edit just to add, before the changes he was sitting at around 44%, but was unbuffable because of his pro presence.
So when do we cut the domination tree?
If you're thinking eyeball collection is nerfed I suggest you read the changes again. You gain double the adaptive per stack and need to gain half as many stacks total. Assists give you the same value as kills (with their value being overall raised since it used to be 1/20 for an assist and 1/10 for a kill - now they are both 1/10).
To clarify on Eyeball Collection, you still get a stack on assist - takedowns are both kills and assists. Now you gain the same amount for killing or assisting, and the max amount needed is reduced.
Edit: I can see now that it looks like it reads that Zombie Ward and Ghost Poro stack infinitely - that's not the case, both of them only stack up to 10 just like Eyeball Collection. The total Adaptive you gain from each of them is the exact same.
Did you fix the bug where Sylas can cancel is own W with his E?
Yea, that's the W bug they were talking about.
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