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Yesss now I get to see this fire on twitter AND reddit <3
Yesss now I get to see this fire on twitter AND reddit <3
It has to do with the reset and early LP inflation from the start of the season
Two biggest factors (from one of the designers):
(1) Due to the early season LP issues we saw, where high skill players were earning LP fairly quickly, Diamond+ got fairly inflated. When we had the reset earlier this season, we floored the reset at Diamond 4, meaning no one was put lower than that division. This pushed most of that inflation back towards D4.
(2) There's also a general tendency of people to hit a benchmark and take a break from Ranked - division 4 tends to be larger regardless of tier, but this becomes even more true as you move up the ladder.
Blastoise Suggestion: Diamond becomes a real "major division" with 5-8% of the top players
Blaustoise Rank: P2
Ladder Rank: 57,924 (5.981% of top)
LMAO I ALREADY BEAT YOU TO THIS THOUGH
https://twitter.com/RiotBlaustoise/status/1125827040844713984?s=20
Because like it or not, it is the worst system if we look it from mental aspect. It is way too grindy and not rewarding.
^ solid answer
no point in even playing then if everyone is diamond
it's already a joke in season 9 now
d4 is basically an insult
The top 6-8% is everyone...?
6-8%? so 92-94% are explicitly NOT diamond? Weird framing of "everyone"
These changes would be all technically superficial right? Like your division doesn't actually have any impact on matchmaking, it's just a rough reflection of your MMR, correct?
correct. Also these are just suggestions I'm throwing out there to see how much they get flamed. No plan to implement currently.
This is going to be a hard pill for people to swallow because it would undermind what "being gold/plat/diamond" means since you're bumping everyone up one tier, but that's going to just have to be something people get over and deal with.
I think that quietly, everyone just assumed that Iron would be filled with B5 players from old, and everything would stay the same, but I don't think people have internalized that Iron wasn't expanding the bottom of the ladder, and what each rank represents now is not the same as it was a few years back. This would be easier with a hard MMR number attached to you, but we aren't getting that.
It's a good thing, but something that the community is going to push back on because it's not going to feel good to them at first. Though this is likely to be for the better for everyone once the angry subreddit threads calm down.
Yeah, one of the biggest issues with this proposal is getting over the mental hurdles, perceptions, and familiarity biases.
Diamond was historically THE "elite" tier. But on so many levels it makes more sense as a major division once we added in Challenger, Masters, and now Grandmasters. Even the slight increase in the size of diamond from S8 to S9 has caused all sorts of issues, and the despite the MMR of many high diamond players being close to masters players, there's still a perception that it's matchmaking that's messed up and not just rank. And that's even MORE problematic because there WERE major issues with matchmaking at the beginning of the season that causes a lot of issues that are still perceived today even if they're not really occurring.
I also think a system where the "elite" ranks (top 1%, masters+ in my ideal world) are given a raw ranking at the top so they can actually see who they're playing with respect to that top tier of the ladder. That wo...
Read moreWhy is "make LoL less gate-keepy" a goal? A division is elite because most people can't get into it. Making it less gatekeepy seems to defeat the whole point of an elite division.
Not saying it's necessarily wrong, but I don't think it's obvious that it should be a goal. There's a clear downside to putting more people in masters-it makes getting masters mean less. What's the upside?
Because it's meaningless at this point. I understand that we started with diamond being "the best of the best", but now we've added in masters + challenger, and recently grandmasters.
It's a little ridiculous. Furthermore I think there's a perception issue when masters+ players are like "UGH why are these DIAMOND players in my games" when in reality, we look at the MMR of the D2 or D1 player they're complaining about... and it's the same elo as them.
Sure there have been legit matchmaking issues this season, but I genuinely think having a more normal distribution of ranks as well as clear distinction between normal divisions (iron to diamond, 99% of players) and elite divisions (masters, GM, chal, top 1% of players) would just make more sense.
"LoL is BY FAR the most salty & Spitoon-y. S9 is CLEARLY an improvement on... whatever was going on in S8. But LoL still looks rough." I'm confused.. He's joking right? Ranked this season is complete trash compared to s7 + s8 because they messed with things that were working, and then later reverted it (d5 players getting into masters because of nuts lp gains for example)
There were major matchmaking issues this season. Not contesting that, and especially early S9 had much larger matchmaking issues than we’ve ever had in S7 or S8.
I’m saying the overall ranked distribution of S9 looks much better than S8. Have to click on the sample graphs, but yeah the ranked distributions are different than MMR/matchmaking
make Diamond a major division so more players can feel good about being at the "top" without being "elite"
diamond being just another division in overwatch is a big reason why i f**king hate ranked overwatch and why low to mid elo diamond is such an incredible shitshow
i like the "raw rank" display, it's a fun way to track people in legend in hearthstone though
otherwise this just once again sounds like riot wants to f**k with the ranking system for no reason
First of all, we're not doing this. I don't even work on ranked, it's just a suggestion/thought I had.
Secondly, OW has pretty generous divisions... diamond is like 10%, masters is 3-4%, and GM is 1%. What I'm suggesting is still pretty far off.
I'm thinking diamond is 6-8% (still a "major division", but the smallest with Iron), and the "elite divisions" are the top 1% of players only (Masters, GM maybe at 0.1%, and Challenger at the set number)
10% is really low..
I think it was actually 15 or 20%, I misspoke during Listen Loco.
to be fair it’s not a competitive match. for all we know their team mates were silver players during the test.
It was the full pro teams vs pro teams. Not tryhard like a scrim, but still somewhat competitive. Goal was to just get a feel for the new system and early feedback.
I did have to sub in and play Top for one team though. I think I played against Seraph’s Jayce?? It was not fun...
Yes it was called release rework Dark Harvest :)
Not even close. It was called “Reap”, and it was a beautiful monstrosity.
Also I misspoke. I think it was 15 or 20% at one point during testing.
Read moreI respectfully disagree with Blaustoise. What we've previously seen in the bot lane does not make for a healthy or fun game. Even now, out of 20+ marksman champions, less than half are being played competitively. By introducing ''non-marksman'' carries to the bot lane, they cut down the already small pool of viable ADC's. Instead of ADDING champions to the available pool in the bot lane, they actually replace them. Several AD carries get retired for the likes of Vlad, Swain and Malzahar, which also happen to promote boring gameplay patterns.
Another problem. ADC's have historically only been viable in the bot lane, with a support to offer peel. What Blaustoise refers to as ''non-marksmen carries'' here are overwhelmingly AP champions playable in the top or mid lane. By giving them another lane to possibly play in or get picked for, you raise their presence and winrate at the expense of champions that were already struggling. Not to mention that you turn the professional Lo...
Great points. I think for so many years we designed the game around the paradigm that marksmen would be played in the duo lane (itemization/scaling for ADs, support changes and designs like Braum with his passive and TK saving low mobility champs, and even specific champ kit designs for marksmen)... makes it hard to undo all of that at once.
For what it's worth I think the current state of bot is actually pretty good. I like 85-95% of botlanes being traditional marksmen+sup combos, but that spice of a Yasuo or Swain is really nice. I just don't know if in the longterm of League (1 years later, 3 years, 5 years later...) we want to have only 1 class dominating a position.
Alternatively we could also look to diversify the position by creating more champions that specifically diversify the types of situations and play in botlane while still being somewhat familiar marksmen. I'm thinking Jhin (at best) and Kalista (at worst). I think we have some of ...
Read moreRead moreI dont understand the arguments of Loco
Specialization is good for the game, why change it?
Specialization in league comes from the positions, not from the class you play. Toplane is mainly focused on 1v1 or 1v2, jungle is about map awareness and prediction etc.
If marksmen hadnt been mandatory, Doublelift will never be able to be that good on them because he would had to play other champions
Lol. So Faker isnt a god on Ryze for example just because he had to play other champions? TheShy isnt f**king nuts on carries because he also has to play tanks sometimes? What kind of argument is that
EDIT: To further clarify: Since LoL doesnt have the mechanical depth of games like Starcraft, if you are talented you will eventually reach a hard cap on what you can do with a class of champions. Thats why there are other skills in the game to distinct the good players from the great pl...
Loco's and Thorin's arguments here are still valid. They claim some degree of specialization allows a sharper and more focused game, and that just because you have an increase in mechanical or tactical demands doesn't mean it's a good thing (example being playing League while standing on your head and slapping a pig's ass would make it harder and certainly separate the good from the great players...).
Now playing Vlad bot in addition to marksmen champs is far from pig's ass slapping, but I could see the case being made that the specific skill and mechanical difficulty of marksmen warrants it being that hyper-specialized role. Furthermore you could argue that it's beneficial to offer different avenues of success & specialization in League (midlaners can be the super flexible players that play everything and people opt in to that experience, whereas bot players really do want that consistent pool of champions to specialize in). Basically ...
Read moreNone of that matters.
I strongly disagree with blaustoise. He's basically saying they want to bring the top lane cassiopeia experience to bot lane.
This game is more fun when laning phase is fun. And the laning phase is most fun when there are certain expectations you can depend on, to not get totally cucked. When mages and yasuo go bot and get free lanes because adcs are weak that makes bot lane less fun, just like when mages and vayne go top to abuse melee champs that is less fun.
I'd much rather be locked into adc sup bot lane, and let's get Cass the f**k out of top while we're at it, because when you can only take champs to certain positions, you might have less variety but you have more fun
I think this is a great point. At the end of the day it really should be about what’s fun, and you could argue that League games have plenty of variety already of 5 vs 5 champions even when some of the positions have more restrictive classes.
But I think there’s a balance. Maybe 90% of your games are traditional sup + marksmen, whereas 10% you get a little spice. Though I could ALSO see more of your concerns manifesting in that world because it is such an infrequent thing that those lanes become earflicks. It could be that the BEST version of botlane is almost entirely marksmen OR really a huge hodgepodge of champion classes 2x2.... and I don’t think we would go to the latter world soon.
Wow Blastoise got f**king destroyed by Thorin @ 0:38 min mark. Holy shit. But Thorin is right if you view LOL as an sport it makes you wonder why it's banning system is so f**king terrible. Why can someone go unbanned for 30 games where they are 0: 11 or some shit? Ruining the game for everyone involved. As well as pro players getting banned for saying a bad word.
but did he destroy me with FACTS and LOGIC?
Also what's interesting about that is that he didn't actually destroy my argument. My argument was "you can't just say it's only a game" regarding how people feel about the League. I argued that it's closer to a sport (Hockey, Football), than a traditional game like Mass Effect or Zelda (which would be closer to a show or book).
Thorin didn't destroy that argument. In fact I'm pretty sure he committed some sort of fallacy there because instead of addressing the substance my argument (that people are invested in it as a sport), he attacked a specific aspect of Riot's player behavior being that if it was a sport we would treat professional players differently in solo queue. He says my argument is great without that context, but it's invalid in that context.
(1) My argument can still be valid (again he never argued against the crux of my argument which is that the motiv...
Read moreHearing more from Blaustoise is actually so good for the community. I feel like he's one of the most active rioters in reaching out to the reddit-twitch playerbase it's cool thanks. Thorn and Loco a great duo as always.
hey thanks bud, I'll keep I get fired or demote out of plat <3
Throwback to when he made a bet with Blaustoise and never followed through
eh im fine with it as long as he's loving League and staying (somewhat) reformed.
Don't want to have to put him in his place again...
I've played against you like 5 times blaustoise and every single time you run it down on yasuo
sounds like me!