NextdoorMMR

As long as the MMRs are right, the high Emerald should hang just fine w/ GMs (50/50, reasonable KDA, etc) and the low Emerald should be Golding like Golds (also 50/50,and normal KDA).

MMR should be a good indicator for both ability to win and ability to play reasonably well with those of the same MMR. It's definitely not perfect, and we have improvements to it coming, but it does appear to be more accurate than Rank.

Emeralds with GM-level MMRs definitely destroy Diamonds with Gold-level MMRs.

Ah, but the point of knowing your skill is to put you into matches where we DON'T know who is going to win or lose. So no one is supposed to win or lose or play well or bad. If we put the same amount of skill on both teams, both sides can prove to us their merit.

Are you asking why Ranked Fortitude isn't visible? I believe it is? I'm not sure how it's a gacha mechanic. There's nothing random in how your Ranked Fortitude increases are calculated. It's based on merit.

Or are you asking why MMR isn't visible? I could foresee it being visible at some point --- it's commonly visible in some form in other games. The new icon we are adding is an indirect way of showing MMR (if you see the icon, you know that players' MMR is closer to the rest of the players than their rank would indicate).

When you are getting about the same LP for a win as a loss, that's also a signal that your LP = your MMR, if that's helpful. It's not hidden for any nefarious reasons, but I think more because historically it's tricky to represent in a way that isn't confusing. MMR can move a ton more or a lot less than you might expect because of the math involved.

MMR's goal is different than Rank. MMR is meant to precisely predict the outcome of a mat...

So currently in ranked a solo player will never play against a group unless they have a same-size group on their team, if that's what you mean.

We definitely zoom in on the solo player vs. group experiences to make sure they have equally fair experiences in Ranked.

I can 100% empathize with your thoughts here. We made the decision to have Diamond and up follow what you are calling your ideal --- only top players can climb into and beyond Diamond.

Meanwhile, for Emerald and below, good players generally climb faster, but it is somewhat possible for players to trade off dedication for ability to an extent. It peters out quite a bit once players get into Plat and Emerald, but yes, any system that has players start at the bottom and move up with have the artifacts you have mentioned.

It's something we are actually very aware of and have improvements in the pipeline to address, though we're not looking at a major overhaul in the near future.

So for now, to compare players Emerald and down accurately, it's good to know how many games it took them to get to Emerald.

To compare players Diamond and up, you can just go by their actual LP and it's generally accurate (and will get more accurate as we improve stuff).

Yes, we are definitely monitoring this situation basically daily. We also have large improvements to MMR system accuracy coming to ranked in a later patch that will make it much less likely to overestimate player skills. That system is already running in Normals if you want to see how it feels.

But, yes, we are aware of situations where a player's performance doesn't always match MMR expectation. Though this happens just as much with high-Rank players as it does with low-Rank ones, when they have the same backend MMR.

Overall, MMR is consistently a better measure than Rank at how well players will play, in our data. It's just that at the end of a match, it's a lot easier to blame Rank since it's more in your face.

This is correct. If you have a high win%, then your Rank can outpace your MMR, meaning your MMR has stayed low and your opponents have had lower MMR than most players at each rank.

Win% is super misleading in the presence of matchmaking. Unless you are one of the best players in the entire system, a high win% usually just means the MMR system is a little too slow, and therefore you have been playing easy opponents. Whereas if your MMR had been high enough, you would have been playing GM and Challenger opponents, and you would also have been getting, e.g., +/- 15.

In fact, you know your MMR is synching with your Rank when you see near equal gains and losses.

So if you keep playing on that account, and stay at that win%, or at least at positive win%, your MMR will catch up over time and your gains will slowly increase until you hit +/-15, and your matches will get harder and harder. If you keep winning, it'll continue up to +15/-10, or even +20/-10.

...

Ranked MMR runs very similar to Elo's system, but with some more advanced math behind it. Which means, it doesn't use winrate, nor other factors, but instead has a number that goes up or down based on how hard the match was.

Match difficulty is based on how far apart your team's average MMR is from the other team. In fact, a good MMR system should tell you how often team A will beat team B given those two numbers (e.g. 3 of 4, or 90%, etc).

So just win/loss right now. The system has no idea what your winrate is since winrate can be affected by too many other factors. It only cares about did you win, and how hard was it to win.

That said, we do reserve the right to incorporate other variables down the road, but only if they result in the system being more accurate at predicting who WINS.

We would not include other stats just because it sounds good, we would only include them if they actually improve our ability to predict who WINS a match.

Bas...

The system handles that so you won't slow more than is appropriate : https://www.reddit.com/r/wildrift/comments/q5x6vn/new_mm_system/hg8yh49?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3

Emerald players playing Grandmasters will get more Ranked Fortitude than those playing Golds, and move up faster. In addition, Emerald players who promote into Diamond will have LP gains that reflect their MMR. If they are Grandmaster level, they'll get extra LP. If they are Gold, they will get less LP and not climb much into Diamond.

Part of this change is because we intentionally make it possible to keep climbing even if your MMR is low for your Rank. You'll climb more slowly, but we wanted it to be possible. Once you hit Diamond the system becomes fully skill based similar to LoL PC and only the best players are able to keep climbing.

But because things are looser below Diamond, matching on Rank isn't as meaningful and often just results in slower search times without actually better matches.

We watch all of these systems very closely and will be tuning all of this constantly to get wait times down and quality up, while keeping the top Ranks as competitiv...

/u/Visv1m is correct. VP gains and losses are based on where your MMR ranks compared to the rest of your tier. If they are net negative, it means your MMR is lower than the MMR of the players on the bottom of GM. Since you are matchmade on MMR, this also means your opponents average below GM MMRs as well, and so you are playing against players that aren't as good as your average GM, hence you get less VP.

Likewise, if your MMR was higher than the top of GM, you would net positive.

However, if you maintain a win percentage over 50% after getting to GM, your MMR will go up, and so will your VP gains, and you will only need to go 50/50. But you may not grind enough MMR to do this if you don't stick with the account.

It's partly because Rank sometimes goes up faster than MMR at that part of th...

It does, though we haven't focused as much on polishing it there yet. We've leaned a bit into it being a bit of a random fest, though we we do peak in now and then and it may likely inherit improvements applied to other modes by default.

Great question! That's exactly the type of problem designers of ranking systems need to think about. The interaction between your skill system, ranking system, and matchmaker / team balancer is critical.

In Wild Rift there are pieces of the ranking system in place to help the climb, like Ranked Fortitude and Placement to a lesser extent.

But in general, yes, when you gave good matchmaking, you need good systems in place to facilitate the climb. In Diamond and up this translates into getting higher VP gains etc.

In an ideal situation, the matchmaker and team balancer would only need to look at MMR to both match and team balance.

So if a Gold IV player belongs in Diamond, they will have a Diamond MMR and ideally be matchmade with Diamond MMR teammates against Diamond MMR opponents, all regardless of what their actual visible Ranks are.

If there's a mix of players with different MMRs, it will ideally organize players such that the sum of the MMR of both teams is as close as possible, since that is the best predictor of who will win the match.

These are actually really good insights into how the system works and the experiences that come out of it, and while it can't be 100% accurate without internal sources, it does a great job at highlighting our problem spaces.

Like the OP has identified, any system that starts at the bottom will result in the type of MMR overlap across Ranks displayed in the post (I actually speak a bit about this myself in my 2016 GDC talk). So it's possible to have fair matches despite a large rank spread because the MMR spread can still be small. In general, MMR is more accurate than Rank at predicting match outcomes.

We are aware of where we can make significant improvements and have several on the way. I list some of them here: ...

It was definitely your MMR improving.

By polishing in 2.4 I mean we have already made that change to speed up matching, and now can do minor tweaks to improve the pairings you are speaking of.

We don't look at Ranked for PVP matchmaking because players play the two differently enough that PVP has its own skill system that we match on. But we are going to improve the quality of the matches you are having soon with some tweaks.

I can confirm that this is caused by a known issue and that we have a solution planned. We are currently prioritizing improvements to matchmaking wait time and quality over this particular VP gain issue, but the fix is in the pipeline as it were.

This is a side effect of two features of how Ranking system works that affects Master and higher players:

1. VP gains are determined by where a player's MMR sits relative to the rest of their rank. So if you are a Master player and your MMR is higher than most Master level players, you will gain extra VP because you are playing better than most Master level players. Likewise, if you are a Challenger and you have an MMR below most Challengers, you will receive less VP for a win than you gain for a loss because you aren't playing like a Challenger. Meaning, you are losing matches that a Challenger would be predicted to win, so you will drop down to Grandmaster where your VP gains will level out. If instead you were to wi...

We don't have anything that says, "Oh, you are over 50% win% so we need to give you harder matches" or anything like that.

There is a backend skill value that we keep that goes up and down based on each match and how hard each match was, similar to most modern games. Uses a model similar to Elo, but fits it using math that is a lot more advanced. So after a match it goes up or down based on if you won or lost, and based on the skill value of everyone else in the match. If opponents were easy, it goes up less, etc.

We matchmake partly on that value. If a skill system is working correctly, matching on the player skill ratings results in each match feeling like either team had an equal chance to win, and ideally that every player in the match was fairly close in ability. We know the current system needs improvements in this area and have some really good ones coming soon where we saw very significant jumps in our ability to gauge player skill when tested on historical ...

I'm not sure where you read we aren't changing anything. I think we've said in each of these posts that improvements are coming across the board in these areas.

We are aware of the less ideal situations you are talking about and we know how and why they happen, and we have improvements coming for all of them, both to ranking and matchmaking time.