PhreakRiot

No I’m just taking 5% as a reasonable measurement of a hard counter. Sylas malphite is the hardest counter in the game. If the single highest matchup delta is 8%, then just saying anything north of 5 is a hard counter holds water in my book.

That’s what I’m saying. The average actual hard counter that’s worth considering crippling a comp for is one that provides +5% win rate. The question is then how much is hurts your overall comp.

Hey, so you’re doing this wrong. Champions have arbitrarily high resting win rates so just taking the resulting win rate doesn’t say much. Illaoi vs trundle is “illaoi is strong” and “illaoi is good vs. trundle” until you separate those two you don’t have anything to say yet.

Some matchups are north of 5%. Sylas malphite is +8-10. But in general a hard counter is roughly 5%. Then there are a bunch of roughly flat ones that pros call “counters” that aren’t.

I think Lucian in a solo lane is a defensible option. But the winrate delta of an extreme counter-pick is like 5%. The winrate delta of picking no engage is much higher than that.

So, sorry, you’ve inted if you’ve gotten the draft to that point.

Obviously the context here is without an engage somewhere else in the comp and I stand behind that.

Thank you Pira for the interview! It was fun!

The ironic thing was the reigning world champion, Ruler, and reigning MSI champion, Uzi, played exclusively marksmen at that point in time.

Yet Rekkles still claimed marksmen were non-viable. 🤷‍♂️

Or players are wrong in "discovering" Zhonya's.

Here's some pro play data as food for thought. This is somewhat clumsy as it will be influenced by actual champions played. Here's the gold/min from the top 5 most-picked champions across Jungle for top leagues/tournaments from 2015 to present

• 2015 Jungle: 303, 286, 291, 286, 335 (300 average)
• 2016 Jungle: 347, 340, 336, 362, 382 (353 average)
• 2017 Jungle: 335, 348, 340, 321, 359 (340 average)
• 2018 Jungle: 314, 315, 314, 314, 331 (318 average)
• 2019 Jungle: 314, 324, 314, 338, 321 (322 average)
• 2020 Jungle: 325, 304, 304, 367, 331 (326 average)
• 2021 Jungle: 342, 351, 341, 339, 348 (344 average)
• 2020 Jungle: 324, 334, 341, 344, 321 (333 average)

It's worth noting that mid lane gold/min is pretty close to 400 in every season after 2015. It's 374 for 2015. So it appears 2016 had a big surge of gold everywhere.

FWIW the average 2nd item completion of a low econ jungler (e.g. Jarvan, Lee) in D2+ is like 20 minutes. For higher-econ junglers like Viego it's more like 19. And this is counting 3k+ items like Death's Dance or Cleaver.

Pro data may be very different and I don't have a way of easily accessing aggregated item data but Gold/Min is easy to find.

The top 5 presence junglers in the season average at 332.8 gold/min, which signals 6656 gold by 20 minutes. If they skip upgraded boots, that's averaging Sunderer + Death's Dance by 20 minutes. 22-23 with upgraded boots.

They're certainly lower-econ, though. The average mid laner in pro sits at around 400 Gold/Min, for example.

Just to devil's advocate, from solo queue data Zhonya's performs pretty weakly on every jungler I've checked. It's very hard to check this exclusively in high-MMR since there aren't that many samples (880 games of Zhonya's second on J4 in D2+ over the last month for example). Again, this is fairly clumsy since intuitively stronger players would be better at using active items but as a direct comparison, Frozen Heart is cheaper and appears to win +4.5% of the time over Zhonya's but this is low confidence because of low sample.

I'm personally unconvinced as an analyst that Zhonya's is actually correct. It feels good, I'm sure. But so does spending 2600g on not just a Chain Vest. I don't really believe it's correct to spend 1.5k on just a repeating stasis when there are much better options out there.

Remember, this is the same pro play that forgot about Censor meta for the entire year. I just don't trust them on this one.

Circling back to the point of damage, I...

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Thanks!

Banger line for sure 😎

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Nah that's just an accidental leak of the script.

Remember C9 with the Swole Bros?

Oh the exchange rate is like 3.3 poggy woggies per pun.

Exactly. So I get one back.

Poggy woggy!

F.....

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Hope I see you there!

Pick rate does not imply mastery rate. Why have you assumed it does?